Re: Kluge's Law in Italic? (was: Volcae and Volsci)

From: stlatos
Message: 68448
Date: 2012-01-31

--- In, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:
> --- In, "stlatos" <stlatos@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In, "stlatos" <stlatos@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In, "stlatos" <stlatos@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I think the only semantic connection is 'wide, broad, spread out' w 'wide (field), earth (goddess)', such as Litavi: Gaul; Plataiaí G; pr,th[i]ví:- V S; ptsí = measure for fields Kamv; and formally the suffix is the very common "god-maker" *-xY-n.o- .
> What basis do you have for arbitrarily infixing a lateral into a PIE root?

I didn't say it was an infix, just that derivatives of the roots both meant 'wide', etc. It's possible they're related, but PIE didn't fix the order of C; it was morphologically arbitrary (probably changed to make the best phonotactic arrangement as each new C was added).

> > > Another bit of ev. for the equivalent meaning 'wide' for deriv. of *pet-x+ and *pelt-x+ in at least Italic is:
> > >
> > > Patavium L; Padua It;
> > >
> > > a place-name orig. prob. just 'field, land', like Plataiaí , etc.
> That is a mere guess on your part. The -d- is ancient (Catullus etc.) and the -t- in <Patavium> is best explained as reflecting an Etruscan intermediate form, since this area was heavily colonized by Etruscans in the 7th-6th c. BCE. That is, the pre-Etr. protoform *Padowi- was Etruscanized as *Patawi- and passed to the archaic Romans as *Pataviom.

I don't think any additional complications are needed. It's already seen that tx > tHx was opt.:

pathana- = broad Av; [e>a-a] patáne: = flat dish G;

and tH > T > D > d in Latin.

Even assuming they're the same, rivers are also named from 'wide', as in potamós = river G.

Many place-names in Italy (not necessarily Latin or even Italic) seemed to be named from words for 'wide' like:

Lavernium, Lavinium, Laurentum


* LaxYs.w+ \ Laws.-xY+ = covering > thin flat stone / burial slab / wide shelf / etc.

as in

laws^ = thin flat bread MArm;

* La:huNkos > lâ:igx = small stone G;

? >> lousa = slab/tombstone Portu;

la:ru(v)a > la:rva = bad ghost/spirit / mask L;

> > So, assuming a relation of pateo: with petánnu:mi , met. of e-a: > a-e: could have been included, instead of a derivative in *-exY+, though it's hard to tell.
> Hard to tell anything, when arbitrary optional soundlaws are pulled out of a hat!

What is more or less arbitrary than your * pht- that can't explain the -a- in pathana- = broad Av; etc., and the necessarily opt. e>a-a in patáne: = flat dish G; vs. pétalos = broad / flat G; (one of many obvious irregular assimilations in G short vowels)? It should be obvious, in this root in particular, that many irregular and opt. changes occurred in IE, including the tn>dn>nd that you argue against.