Re: On the old amber road?

>
>
> Given all that, one is tempted to ask: was there any 'amber road' at all?
>
> ****GK: You mean in the sense of an actual "road"?

Of course not. That's not what I meant.

> I thought it was pretty well understood that there wasn't and that
> by "amber road" scholars meant transport primarily via rivers...****
>

If you follow the rivers from the north, with a single portage you end up in the Black Sea. If you wanted to go to the Adriatic you'd have to backtrack up the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sava_River
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ljubljanica
to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauportus
with another portage. A looong one.

>  It's an old law of transporatation that high-value, low volume goods (noble metal, gems, intellectual products, eg software) are the least susceptible to high transportation cost, so one could wonder instead whether the 'amber road' was used for transporting thing other than amber at all, and whether we instead should be looking at rivers as supply routes for the exchanges we know have taken place? (odd evidence: once the Gotthard tunnel opened, Italy stopped producing great composers)
>
>  
> *****GK: For the "amber road" after ca. 60 CE, cf.  Pliny NH, 37. 42-45:
>
> Certum est gigni in insulis septentrionalis oceani et ab Germanis appellari glaesum, itaque et ab nostris ob id unam insularum Glaesiariam appellatam, Germanico Caesare res ibi gerente classibus, Austeraviam a barbaris dictam. nascitur autem defluente medulla pinei generis arboribus, ut cummis in cerasis, resina in pinis erumpit umoris abundantia. densatur rigore vel tempore ac mari, cum ipsum intumescens aestus rapuit ex insulis, certa in litora expellitur, ita volubile, ut pendere videatur atque non sidere in vado.
>   arboris sucum esse etiam prisci nostri credidere, ob id sucinum appellantes. pinei autem generis arboris esse indicio est pineus in adtritu odor et quod accensum taedae modo ac nidore flagrat. adfertur a Germanis in Pannoniam maxime provinciam, et inde Veneti primum, quos Enetos Graeci vocaverunt, famam rei fecere proximique Pannoniae et agentes circa mare Hadriaticum.
>   Pado vero adnexa fabula est evidente causa, hodieque Transpadanorum agrestibus feminis monilium vice sucina gestantibus, maxime decoris gratia, sed et medicinae; creditur quippe tonsillis resistere et facium vitiis, varie genere aquarum iuxta Alpis infestante guttura hominum.
>   DC M p. fere a Carnunto Pannoniae abesse litus id Germaniae, ex quo invehitur, percognitum nuper, vivitque eques R. ad id comparandum missus ab Iuliano curante gladiatorium munus Neronis principis. qui et commercia ea et litora peragravit, tanta copia invecta, ut retia coercendis feris podium protegentia sucinis nodarentur, harena vero et libitina totusque unius diei apparatus in variatione pompae singulorum dierum esset e sucino.
>
> ****GK: So since Nero Carnuntum was the port of transit for the amber traffic from the north to Roma.****

As the result of that expedition, yes.
And before, it might have been Nauportus

>
>
> For the 'amber road' an alternative river route would include rivers
> like
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dniepr
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_river
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Bug
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Bug
>
> *****GK: especially in the earlier period, before Roman ascendancy,
> when there were other important Hellenistic centers eager to acquire
> amber. Cf. generally:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_Road%c3%82%c2%a0****

My point still stands (I think):
The socalled 'amber road' before the expedition in Nero's time went to the Black Sea, not to the Adriatic. That's also why I think Roman grave goods in Germanic graves came that way.

> (any connection between Piengitai and Pivdennyi from *pUl-den- "noon", I assume, BTW?)
>
> ****GK: How about trying a Dacian reconstruction via -getai ? *****

Detschew, Die thrakischen Sprachreste
has
'πιενγι~ται dakischer Stamm außerhalb der röm. Provinz Dacia.
- Ptol. 3, 5, 8;
πιανγι~ται κα`ι Î'ίεσσοι παρ`α τ`ην Καρπάτην τ`ο `όρος.
Nach WT. Thr. I 106 vielleicht Anwohner irgend eines *Pienga genannten Flusses. Richtiger Anwohner des Flusses *αγγος, bzw. *εγγος
(vgl.
`αγγίτης, Zufluß des Strymon,
`εγγηϊσται Stammesnamen und πι- in πιάσται).'

"πιενγι~ται Dacian tribe outside the Roman province Dacia.
- Ptol. 3, 5, 8;
πιανγι~ται κα`ι Î'ίεσσοι παρ`α τ`ην Καρπάτην τ`ο `όρος.
Acc. to WT. Thr. I 106 perhaps inhabitant on a river named *Pienga. More correctly inhabitant on the river *αγγος [Angos], or *εγγος [Engos].
(cf.
`αγγίτης, tributary of the Strymon river,
`εγγηϊσται tribal name and
πι- in πιάσται)."

Igylliones etc?


Torsten