Re: w-glide

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> >

Translation and a few comments

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Evelyn" <schofieldev@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Otherwise, how about making the Igylliones węglarze
> > > > http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C4%99glarz_(zaw%C3%B3d)
> > > > ie.
> > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charcoal
> > > > makers (why doesn't that profession have a name in
> > > > English?)?
> > >
> > > But it does - collier.
> >

> The problem probably is that English colliers, when coal mines
> opened, continued as coal miners, whereas elsewhere those
> professions are seen as separate. This means that English collier
> has a wider definition than
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%B6hler
> http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonero_(ocupaci%C3%B3n)
> http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C4%99glarz_(zaw%C3%B3d)
> http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulsvier
> etc.

cf
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/collier
'collier (plural colliers)
...
3. A nickname used by the traveller community, referring to a non-traveller'

That would match a scenario where some Köhler/Carboneri etc in England shifted to working in coal mines, while others took to the road. Travellers are the British social equivalent of the descendants of the Continental Köhler ... etc


> The kulsviere in Denmark had an identity as a separate people,
> keeping to themselves in the forest (Sw. tattare, Da. tatere).
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_and_Swedish_Travellers
> http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tater
>

So, I repeat,
Rick Derksen
Etymological Dictionary
of the Slavic Inherited Lexicon

'*ò,glь m. i (a) "coal"
CS OCS o,glь (Ps. Sin., Supr.) m.(i)
E Ru. úgol’ m.(jo), Gsg. úglja, Gsg. ugljá
W Cz. uhel m.(jo); Slovak uhoľ m.(jo); Pl. węgiel m.(jo)
S
SCr. `ùgalj m.(jo), Gsg. `ùglja;
`ùglje:n m.(o), Gsg. `ùgljena;
Čak. `ùgļen (Vrg.) m.(o), Gsg. `ùgļena;
Sln. ô,gəł m.(o), Gsg. ô,gla;
vô,gəł m.(o), Gsg. vô,gla
BSl. *on?glis
B
Lith. angls f.(i) 4; ánglis m.(io) 1; añglis m.(io) 2;
Latv. ùogle f.(e:)
PIE *h1ongw-l-
Cogn.
Skt. án.gāra- (RV+) m. "coal" (with a suffix *-ŏ:l-)
Probably a hysterodynamic l-stem.
See also: *ògņь; *vygъņь; *vygъņa'


in Vasmer:
'у´голь m. G. у´гля "coal",
Ukrainian vúhiľ,
Belarusian vůhoľ,
Old Russian ug(ъ)lь,
Old Bulgarian o,glь `άνθραξ (Supr.),
Bulgarian vъ´gle n. "coal",
Serbo-Croatian `ùgalj, G. `ùglja,
Slovenian vô.gəł G. vô.gla,
Czech uhel,
Slovak uhol,
Polish węgiel,
Upper Sorbian wuhl, wuhel,
Lower Sorbian hugel. ||

Cognates::
Old Prussian anglis,
Lithuanian anglìs, Acc. añglį, Eastern Lithuanian ánglis,
Latvian ùogle,
Sanskrit áŋgāras "coal",
Modern Persian angišt id.,
s.
...
On a poss. relation to ого´нь (Solmsen Unters, gr. Lautl. 218), see above.'

comparing it with *ogonь "fire" (note the a/o/u 'ablaut')

'ого´нь G. огня´ m. "fire",
Ukrainian ohόń G. ohńú,
Old Russian ognь,
Old Bulgarian ogn~ъ πυ̃ρ (...),
Bulgarian όgъn,
Serbo-Croatian ògаnj, ògnjа,
Slovenian όgəń,
Czech oheň G. ohně,
Slovak oheň,
Polish ogień,
Upper Sorbian woheń,
Lower Sorbian hogeń. ||

Cognates: from
IE *ognis;
Lithuanian ugnìs G. ugniẽs, Eastern Lithuanian ùgnis,
Latvian uguns (u is reduced grade of o because of Lithuanian аgnùs "firey"),
Sanskrit аgnís m. "fire",
Hittite аgniš,
Latin ignis
from *egnis,
s. ...
the hapax Old Lithuanian ungnis is Schreibfehler for ugnis,
s. ... .

The proposal *n.gnis, still favored today by
...
who connect ого´нь with
Sanskrit áŋgārаs 'coal',
у´голь (which see),
is not likely from either Slavic nor from Italic point of view (see Walde-Hofmann ], 676),

Unlikely is the attempt to find a relation of *ognь in
Lithuanian ùnkstu, ùnkti "whimper, grovel",
Latin uncō, -āre "growl (bear)",
Slavic *jęčati (s. яча´ть),
pace Lehr-Spławiński Mélanges Belié 415ff. Bold comparisons with
Latin egula "type of sulphur" u. a.
in Loewenthal WS. 11, 54. Not certain is whether *ognь is related to
Serbo-Croatian v`ìganj "smithy",
Czech výheň "hearth" '

I wondered if it would be possible for a variant of that root to shed the initial vowel altogether, cf *igrá/grá "game"

'игра´ "play", играть "play", dial. грать id.;
Ukrainian hra, ihrá, hráty "play",
Belarusian hrać,
Old Bulgarian igrь παιγνον (Supr. Euch. Sin.), igrati παίζειν (Supr.),
Bulgarian igrá, igrája "play",
Serbo-Croatian igra "dance, play", ìgrati, `ìgra^m "dance, play",
Slovenian ígra "play", igrátì,
Old Czech jhra, jhráti, Czech hra, hrátì,
Slovak ihra, hrať,
Polish gra, grać,
Upper Sorbian jhra, hra, hrać,
Lower Sorbian gra, graś,
Polabian jagréića "play", jeigrόją "they play",
see Rozwadowski RS. 7,10. ||

Proto-Slavic *jьgra, *jьgrati related to
Lithuanian aikštytis "be boisterous",
Latvian aîkstîtiês "scream, be noisy",
Lithuanian áikštis "passion",
Sanskrit é:jati, í:jati "moves",
ON eikinn "wild, furious, strong",
s. ...
The comparison with
Sanskrit
yájati "sacrifices, honors",
yájiyas, yájyas "venerandus"
Avestan yazait,
Greek
´άζομαι "behold, worship",
´άγος n. "devout awe"
(Potebnja bei Preobr. 1,264)
should be rejected.'

If so, we could compare with
de Vries
'kol 1 n. "charcoal", Icelandic Faroese Norwegian Swedish Danish kol. [nope, Danish kul]
- > Shetl. kol "glowing peat on the hearth";
> Orkn. kol (Marwick 92). -
OE col,
Old Frisian kole,
MLG kol(e),
Middle Dutch cole, cool,
OHG kolo, kol. -

Either to
Sanskrit jvalati "burn",
Old Irish gúal (< *goulo) "coal" (IEW 399), or to
kala;
depending on whether glowing or extinguished coals was assumed (W. Schulze KZ 56, 1929, 141).
- cf. kola.

Also used as anthroponym Kolr,
cf.
Frankish Colo;
further in the compounds
Kolbeinn, Old Swedish Kolben, Old Danish Kulben (> OE Colbein; Old Irish Colbain),
Kolbjo,rn, Old Swedish Kolbiorn (> OE Colebernus)
Kolbrandr, Kolgrimr, Kolskeggr;
also in West Germanic cf.
OE Colbeorht, Frankish Colobert, OE Colman, Frankish Coloman
(Naumann 99).
- 2 n. in the compound ísarnkol (Grímn.) "bellows", orig. "gust of icy wind".
- cf. kul.'

and guess at their identity with the Quadi/Coldui
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66368
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadi

except for the pesky -d-. Perhaps -ll- -> -ld-?

It's interesting that both Igul- and Kol- are attested as prefixes to anthroponyms, as if they indicated the ethnicity of the bearer.


Another possibility:
The traditional etmology of Hungary/Ugri etc is from Turkish Onogur "ten arrows"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_people#Etymology

However...

Vasmer:
'угрин "Hungarian", adj. у´горский "Hungarian",
only Old Russian ugrinъ, pl. ugre (Nestor-Chron.), Ukrainian vúhor, úhor,
Serbian Church Slavonic o,grinъ, pl. o,gre
Serbo-Croatian ùgar G. ùgra, also ùgrin,
Slovenian vogər, vogrin (MiEW. 223)
Czech uher, Slovak uhor,
Polish węgier, węgrzyn.
Old Lithuanian unguras "Hungarian",
has been loaned from a
Slavic *o,gъrinъ
not later than the 10th century (Buga IORJ. 17, 1, 1ff.). ||

Slav. *o,g(ъ)rinъ,
Medieval Latin Ungari, Ungri (Hungari probably has its h from Hunni),
Medieval Greek Ο`υ̃γγροι, Ο`υγγρικός
(attestations from the 10-16th century in Moravcsik Byz.-Turc. 2, 194ff.),
are based on the Turco-Tatarian ethnonym
`Ονόγουροι (Priscus, Agathias),
Medieval Latin Hunuguri (Jordanes), Onoguria terra (Geogr. Ravennas),
Bulgarian-Turkish on ogur
Old Turkish on oγuz "zehn Oguzstämme",
see ... .'

thus the same alternation with and without n-'infix' and w-glide as the list from Derksen
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/67683
and thus suspected of being much older than the arrival of the Hungarians in Europe in the 10th century.

Here's something interesting:
Vasmer:
'у´горь II. G. угря´ "pimple, blackhead",
Ukrainian vuhór G. vuhri id.,
Bulgarian vъgaréc "maggot, grub" (*o,gorьcь, s. Mladenov 93ff.)
Serbo-Croatian ùgrk id.,
Slovenian ôgre, ogŕc "maggot, botfly, pimple",
Czech uher, Slovak uhor,
Polish wągr, węgry pl.,
Upper Sorbian wuhra, Lower Sorbian huger. ||

Proto-Slavic *o,grъ
Cognates:
Lithuanian ánkštara f., Eastern Lithuanian inkštìras "pimple",
further
OHG angar "maggot",
German Engerling "grub"
see ...
It has been attempted to show commmon ancestry with
у´горь I "snake" and
yж "adder"
see ... .'

Thus *o,gor- is
1) "pimple, maggot", 2) "Hungarian"
in Slavic, as
*finne in Germanic (German, Swedish) means
1) "pimple", 2) "Finn"
(cf. German Mitesser "pimple", Lithuanian "co-eater", ie "parasite" and
Danish hudorm "blackhead", Lithuanian "skin worm",
thus pimples and blacheads were understood as caused by parasites)
Lower Sorbian even has *o, -> hu/o- in both the words for "coal" and "fire", and also in that for "pimple; maggot", which would explain the H- in "Hungary"

http://runeberg.org/svetym/0225.html
'2. finne, blemma,
B. Olai 1578 (om ansiktsfinnar) = da.,
från Low German, ty. finne f.;
besl. med de under fena anförda orden med grundbetyd.: spetsig o. d.'
...
fena, Spegel 1712,
either developed from Old Swedish "fina" or relatively recent extension of an
Old Swedish *fin =
Older Modern Swedish fe(e)n, fann, Lex. Linc. 1640 etc.
(även fen plur.) = Swedish dial.;
from Germanic *finō(n)-;
related to the synonymous
MLG vinne (German finne),
OE finn (English fin) with -nn-,
possibly from an n-stem inflection
(cf kvinna: Gothis qinö);
with m- deriv. in
Swedish dial. fime, Flemish vimme;
cf BTW
Swedish dial. fen n., fena, chaff
(cf kofen, Swedish dial. kornfena),
Norwegian finn m., Nardus stricta m. m.;
from IE root
(s)pin- in OHG spenala, needle, in ablaut relation to
Latin spina, thorn;
Latin pinna, feather,etc, may contain old -nn-,
but also be derived from a
*pit(s)nā, pidnā etc.,
cf
Lithuanian spitnà, spänn-torn;
from a simpler
IE root (s)pi, "be pointed", in
Latin spica, ax,
cf
finne, spik, spira etc.'

Most likely Engl. pimple is from the corresponding the NWBlock form *pim-, thus *pim-l-

And further:
*(w)aN- -> German Anger, Danish eng, Basque angio "meadow", Danish vang "field"
*peN- -> Dutch veen, English fen.

Nice.

Alright then. Proposal: The Igylliones were Uralic-speaking charcoal-burners, seen by their neighbors as vermin (living on meadows?), and they disappeared at some time after Ptolemy mentioned them.

Also:
Enout-Meillet:
'Orcus, -Ä« m.
(ancient
Uragus acc. to Verrius Flaccus ap. Fest. 222, 6, 1.
Urgus with Fulv. Urs,?);
name of an infernal deity; "Hell" itself, and "Death".
Ancient (Naev., Pl.). M.L. 6088;
OE orc.
Derivatives:
orcīnus, adj. used in legal language: orcīnī libertī "manumitted by testament after the death of their master";
whence Orcī­niānus (Mart.).
Etymology unknown.'

Skeat:
'Ogre, a monster
(F. = Span. = L.)
F. ogre. = Span. ogro,
O.Span. huergo, huerco, uerco,
cognate with
Ital. orco, a hobgoblin, demon (Diez). =
L. Orcum, acc, of orcus,
(1) the abode of the dead,
(2) the god of the infernal regions, Orcus, Pluto.
Minshen gives O.Span. huerco hell.'


Torsten