Re: Schöffe I

From: Torsten
Message: 67556
Date: 2011-05-15

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Alx" <alxmoeller@...> wrote:

>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > So it's not unlikely -eşti could have been rendered as -st- if
> >loaned.
>
> by speakers who have no "sh" in their language? Probably, I guess it
> pretty depends on the speakers of the language and the phonetical
> features of their language..

> > > At that time was too George the one who argumentes against it
> > > but meanwhile we know that the "-esc" suffix in Romanian cannot
> > > be explained via Latin.
> >
> > Does Trieste have it own name in Romanian? 'Tîrgeşti'?
> >
>
> not an ancient one since the Romanians have been far away from
> Trieste and now they speak it out as the Italians, namely "Trieste".
> Actually, in Ro lang for "to be" there is the form for pers. 3 sg.
> "este" but as suffix there is only "eshte", no suffix in "este". The
> words which ends in "-este" as "veste, poveste, almageste" are
> either loans from slavic (that is, as the Slavs came, the change of
> *esty>*eshty was already done), or they are neologism as french
> "almageste".
>
> The suffix "-eshte" makes adverbs from nous, showing "like how
> something should be made" eg. american+eshte=americaneshte (like the
> americans).
> On another hand, there is the romance equivalent of -esce which is
> rendered too as "-eshte" and we find it in the conjugations of the
> verbs ( you gave already the example of italian conosco, conosci,
> conosce with their Romanians equivalents).
> It is maybe a possibility to consider that a substratual -
> "eshte/eshti" is the one reflex which triggered the change of the
> Latin -esce/esci in -eshte/eshti since for the Thracian speakers
> that sound was "almost" the same.
>

Excuse my bad Dacian/Thracian, I meant of course
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%A2rgovi%C5%9Fte
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targovishte

Now it's interesting that the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istro-Romanians
speaking the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istro-Romanian_language
live just around the corner from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trieste / Tergeste.

As evident from
http://iza.zrc-sazu.si/pdf/Horvat_AAAD_2009.pdf
Roman commercial influence in the area began in 211 - 170 BCE (finds of Victoriati coins).

Strabo 7, 3, 11
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7C*.html
'As for the Getae, then, their early history must be left untold, but that which pertains to our own times is about as follows: Boerebistas a Getan, on setting himself in authority over the tribe, restored the people, who had been reduced to an evil plight by numerous wars, and raised them to such a height through training, sobriety, and obedience to his commands that within only a few years he had established a great empire and subordinated to the Getae most of the neighbouring peoples. And he began to be formidable even to the Romans, because he would cross the Ister with impunity and plunder Thrace as far as Macedonia and the Illyrian country; and he not only laid waste the country of the Celti who were intermingled with the Thracians and the Illyrians, but actually caused the complete disappearance of the Boii who were under the rule of Critasirus, and also of the Taurisci.'


http://iza.zrc-sazu.si/pdf/Horvat_AAAD_2009.pdf

'Nauportus

In the Late Iron Age, a Celtic settlement was probably located in the
region of Vrhnika, which the Romans later renamed Nauportus. The
archaeological evidence for this settlement is still very poor, yet the Greek historian and geographer Strabo reported, following a source of the 2nd century bC, that the goods were transported by wagons from Aquileia to Nauportus, a settlement of the Taurisci, and from there the goods were conveyed by boat along rivers to the Danube.

On the basis of the name of the settlement and historical analogies, it can be concluded that a toll station in the hands of the Celtic tribe of the Taurisci existed at Nauportus.

The Romans probably controlled the Nauportus region as early as
the first half of the 1st century bC. The settlement was granted the status of a village (vicus). Two inscribed stones from the middle of the 1st century bC (the period of Caesar or Octavian) mention officials â€" two pairs of village heads (magistri vici). All of them were freedmen and members of Aquileian or Italian merchant families. The inscriptions further mention the construction of a portico and a sanctuary, which was dedicated to the local goddess Aecorna. It can be concluded from the historical and epigraphic data that Nauportus was an important settlement where merchant families from Aquileia played a leading role. The proportion of immigrants from Italy was quite considerable from the very beginning.

A boundary stone, probably of the Augustan date, which was found in the Ljubljanica river between Nauportus and Emona, provides evidence that Nauportus was located on the territory of Aquileia and that both the settlements, Nauportus and Emona, were situated in Italy.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauportus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vrhnika

Strabo 4, 6, 10
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/4F*.html
'And further, the Iapodes (we now come to this mixed tribe of Illyrii and Celti) dwell round about these regions; and Mount Ocra is near these people. The Iapodes, then, although formerly they were well supplied with strong men and held as their homeland both sides of the mountain and by their business of piracy held sway over these regions, have been vanquished and completely outdone by Augustus Caesar. Their cities are: Metulum, Arupini, Monetium, and Vendo. After the Iapodes comes Segestica, a city in the plain, past which flows the River Saüs, which empties into the Ister. The situation of the city is naturally well-suited for making war against the Daci. The Ocra is the lowest part of the Alps in that region in which the Alps join the country of the Carni, and through which the merchandise from Aquileia is conveyed in wagons to what is called Nauportus (over a road of not much more than four hundred stadia); from here, however, it is carried down by the rivers as far as the Ister and the districts in that part of the country; for there is, in fact, a river which flows past Nauportus; it runs out of Illyria, is navigable, and empties into the Saüs, so that the merchandise is easily carried down to Segestica and the country of the Pannonii and Taurisci. And the Colapis too joins the Saüs near the city; both are navigable and flow from the Alps.'

Segestica:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisak
another Venetic/Dacian -st- town.

Obviously, Burebista's expulsion and annihilation of the Taurisci/Tauristi meant that the area around Nauportus was now controlled by Burebista. He would have had plenty of slaves to sell to the Romans. Perhaps this is the place where the Romanian language began as a Dacian-substrate Latin creole.



Torsten