Re: Schöffe I

From: t0lgsoo1
Message: 67417
Date: 2011-04-28

>I added the context of the answer. As you can see George maintained
>that these Roman urbes were in place in Ariovistus' time, in the 1st
>century BCE, which they weren't. I'm not disputing that they were
>there later.

OK: Rottweil came into existance roughly 100 later (in the 70s of
the 1st c. CE), and the *Roman* place Augusta Vindelicorum started
its *Roman* existence in 15 BCE, prior to that it was a Celtic
place (of the Vindelici). Betw. 80-44 BCE, the Roman Empire did
noy yet comprise the area east of the (Alsacian) Rhine and
north of the (Swiss-Austrian) Alps.

But you didn't limit your Ariovist argument to a few years, did
you? I thought you were referring to the whole rest of the 1st
c. BCE and at least the 1st c. CE as well - or, in fact, to the
entire time period until the great Germanic colonization of the
whole area.

For, otherwise, what relevance could have had a scattered Germanic
presence in those Roman provinces in order to influence in a
certain way the Germanic dialects spoken there *after* the
4th-5th-6th-7th c. colonizations and the Germanization of the
non-Germanic population??

The way you put the Ariovist + Bastarnae problem may suggest
a massive Germanic presence from Strasbourg to Salzburg of even
to Vindobona (Vienna) from that time until the inception of
the great Germanic immigrations 4-5-6-7 centuries later. It
is this that doesn't fit the story.

>Yes, I should show that my proposal does better than the
>competition, which I did. I looked at all the other sources
>from where the Roman could have obtained Germanic slaves in
>the period up to Spartacus' rebellion, and there weren't any.

These details are of no avail. What matters is the chief assertion:
that those Germanic groups at the beginning or in the middle of
the 1st century BCE (I) came in, (II) stayed there, and (III)
was able to "teach" the later bulks of Germanics (be them from
the Elbe or from Bohemia, be them from the lower Rhine and Weser)
that kind of Germanic vernacular that later on was called
"Hochdeutsch" (or Mittel- + Oberdeutsch).

Where in the relevant territory was there such an important
Germanic population between, say, 50 BCE and 300 or 600 CE?
(Namely in today's Alsace, Switzerland, Austria, Baden-
Württemberg, Bavaria.) Which Roman and Gothic documents attest