Re: Tudrus

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <bm.brian@...> wrote:

>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@>
> wrote:
>
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott"
> > <bm.brian@> wrote:
>
> >> At 7:54:08 PM on Saturday, January 1, 2011, Rick
> >> McCallister wrote:
>
> >>> From: Torsten <tgpedersen@>
>
> [...]
>
> >>>> There is a suffix *-ri:k in German Enterich, Da.
> >>>> andrik, Engl. drake (*and- "duck")
>
> >> No suffix there: the vowel isn't long, and the second
> >> element is probably a WGmc. *drako or the like, perhaps
> >> originally an independent word for 'male duck'.
>
> > Obviously there is a suffix:
> > Da. and "duck", andrik "drake"
> > Grm. Ente "duck", Enterich "drake"
> > Grm. Taube "pigeon", Täuberich "male pigeon"
> > http://ordnet.dk/ods/ordbog?query=andrik&search=S%C3%B8g
> > http://runeberg.org/svetym/0099.html
>
> There is a suffix, derived from the Gmc. anthroponymic
> deuterotheme, but it doesn't appear in the 'male duck' word.

Hellquist thinks it might. Or simply 'an andrake' -> 'a drake'.

> It's not even clear to what extent it originally appeared in
> <Täuberich>, which is an extension of earlier <tauber>, or
> in <Gänserich>, which is an extension of earlier <ganser>
> first attested in the 16th century.
>
> > (the form anddrake etc shows your *drako can't have
> > originally meant "drake", if it did, the first element
> > could not have served a purpose of specifying further the
> > -drake part and thus have been superfluous, perhaps that's
> > Suolahti's idea too; we should probably proceed from
> > andrake)
>
> On the contrary, the first part could very well have been
> added to differentiate a 'male duck' word from the 'dragon'
> word.

Not likely. Although the Swedish combining form is and- (eg. andfåglar
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andf%C3%A5glar
"Anseriformes") the Danish one is ande- (eg. andefugle
http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andefugle
) not *and-.

> > cf. also fenrik (appr. staff sergeant)
> > http://ordnet.dk/ods/ordbog?query=f%C3%A6ndrik&search=S%C3%B8g
>
> Na, und? It's a borrowing of German <Fähnrich>, which is a
> NHG extension of MHG <venre>, OHG <faneri>, under the
> influence of masculine names originally in *-ri:kaz.

More likely, in spite of most dictionaries, from Dutch
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaandrig
cf. the -d-.

> In short, another late-comer, as most of these words are
> (e.g., <Knöterich>, late 15th century). Many of them were
> pejorative, exhibiting an interesting parallel with French
> pejoratives in <-ard>, from the Gmc. deuterotheme <-hard>.

Dutch -aard, Danish -ert

> There are a few apparent OHG examples of the suffix derived
> from the onomastic theme, mostly plant names. <Hederīh>
> 'hedge mustard' is probably from Latin <hederaceous> under
> the influence of personal names in <-rīh>; <wegarīh>
> 'plantain' may actually contain the 'king' word.

Ernout-Meillet:
'hedera, -ae f. (edera dans P.F.72,23, mais hedera 89,16): lierre. Ancien. Panroman. M.L.4092; et celt.: irl. eden.
Semble avoir été rattaché à *hendō (cf. praehendō) par les anciens; cf. P.F. 72,23, ederam flamini Diali neque tangere, neque nominare fas est, quod edera uincit (de uinciō) ad quodcumque se applicat.
Dérivés et composés:
hederāceus (all. Hederich);
hederātus;
hederōsus;
hederiger (Cat. = κισσοφόρος).
Aucun rapprochement clair; la forme du mot est incertaine, hedera ou edera; toutefois les transcriptions grecques ont toujours un ´ε-, avec esprit rude.'

So it seems that whatever the origin, the suffix was there from the beginning.

> Then there's <wuotrih> 'tyrant', but since there's also
> <wuotrīhhī> 'tyranny', we may have the 'king' word (or
> influence from it) here as well.

It seems there are three suffixes
1) the 'domestic bird' suffix
2) -ri:k-, the "king" suffix
3) -rik, the merger of 1) and 2)

The question is how far back we can assume 3) existed.

> > and the vowel of the contemporaneous version of the
> > anthroponymic suffix / second element is also short; do
> > you know contemporaneous attestations of the two suffixes
> > where they differ in vowel length?
>
> The only word to which my comment applied is <Enterich>, for
> which it's clear that the OHG forms do not have /Ä«/ (or any
> long vowel). It's also clear that the OHG masculine names
> in <-rīh> had long vowels.
>
> [...]
>
> >>>> possibly Gothic Ermanaric(?)
>
> >> That's a straightforward dithematic name in <-ri:k>.
>
> > But the first theme is identical to that of Arminius.
>
> Quite possibly; so what? It's not as if simplex names were
> exactly thin on the ground.

No, the question was whether a suffix -rik could be added to a simplex name. If the first theme of Ermanaric is identical to the theme of Arminius, it seems it could.

>
> >> Gothic *Þiudareiks (LLat. <Theodoricus>) is pretty
> >> clearly from *Þiuðo:-ri:kaz and unrelated to the Gk.
> >> name.
>
> > Unless -ri:k- is a suffix.
>
> In a masculine name? One can imagine all sorts of fanciful
> things when one is unconstrained by the evidence.

The constraining evidence here is the existence of Arminius/Ermanaric. In the case of Theodor/Theodoric the suffix would rather be the -ik of tauber/Täuberich and ganser/Gänserich.



Torsten