Re: Master of the twelve

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <stlatos@...> wrote:

>
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
>
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <stlatos@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I'll sum up:
> > > > *aNsu-/*aNsura- (non-IIR *esu-) means not only "master", it
> > > > means "master of the twelve"; as the sun is the master of the
> > > > houses of the zodiac, the *aNsu- etc is master of twelve
> > > > houses/peoples on earth.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > You appear to be confusing two different words: 'breathing,
> > > being, spirit, god' and 'existing, good, master'.
>
>
> > I do?
> >
> > Pokorny
> > ansu-, ņsu- ,Geist, Dämon'.
> > Ai. ásu-, av. aŋhu- ,Lebenshauch, Welt', davon
> > ai. ásu-ra-, av. ahura- ,Machthaber' (*ņsu-);
> > ven. ahsu- (= āsu-) ,Kultbild' = germ. *ansuz ,Gott, Ase'
> > in
> > aisl. āss,
> > run. a[n]suR,
> > ags. ōs ,Ase',
> > got.-lat. anses ,Halbgötter'.
> >
> > Vielleicht zu an(ə)- ,atmen'.
> > ...
> >
> > esu-s (: su-) ,gut, tüchtig'.
> > Gr. `εύς, `ηύς ,tüchtig, gut',
> > Adverb ε`υ~ (Akk. n.),
> > Präfix ε`υ- gehört zu
> > hitt. a-aš-śu-uš (assu-s) ,gut';
> > zum a- s. Pedersen Hitt. 167 u. Anm.;
> > vielleicht als Schwundstufe dazu (Friedrich IF. 41, 370 f.)
> > das Präfix su-, s. dort;
> > hierzu vielleicht
> > lat. erus ,Herr', fem. era, alat. esa ,Herrin';
> > doch ist hitt. iš-ha-a-aš (ishas) ,Herr' fernzuhalten, da dies zu
> > arm. isxan ,Herr', isxal ,herrschen' gehört (?),
> > das selbst nichtidg. Herkunft ist (Couvreur H 9);
> > fern bleiben gall. GN Esus (mit e:-), wohl wegen der Namen mit
> > Aes-, Ais- am ehesten zu 1. ais- oder 2. ais- (oben S. 16),
> > weniger wahrscheinlich zu 2. eis- (oben S. 299); ebenso der air.
> > PN Éogan (*ivogenos) und der cymr. PN Owein (älter Ywein, Eugein,
> > Ougen) = air. PN Úgaine (*owogenios), vgl. dazu Bergin Ériu 12,
> > 224 f.
>
>
> There is no ev. to connect them in one. All ev. connects them to
> two: * xan-xY+ and * xYes+.

Please present the ev. that you think connects them to those two roots.

> > > What is the N in *aNsu-/*aNsura- supposed to mean?
> >
> > Capital per convention means superscript, so it indicates that the
> > vowel before it is nasalized.
> >
>
>
> A capital N or L could also mean 'velar _'; since neither is
> standard in IE > IIr for this word, I asked.

I use ŋ for the velar nasal; I tend to use UTF-8, but it has no representation of superscript, AFAIK.

> This can't fit w Oscan anafríss kerríiúís & maatúís kerríiúís
> (both aprx. 'grain spirits' (possibly one for dead ancestors,
> another for ~ gods/fairies, who knows?)) in which the -n- is clearly
> present and not nasalization.

As to the semantics Brian already said what should be said (I might believe they used it for their ancestors, but why waste grain spirits on fairies?).

> The standard model might have ansuro- > ansaro- > anasro- > anafro-,
> though it's not important for this discussion.

And I could feed into that chain by epenthesis:
*aNs-ur- -> *anas-r- etc.

> Also, the abundance of god-names w -no- makes dis. n-n > n-r the
> likely source for -ro-. I don't know how the timing would fit in w
> your thoughts about aN > aU/e: and non-IE-origin, neither of which I
> believe.

Erh, okay.

>
> > I think the Venetic and Germanic forms of the root Pokorny
> > reconstructs as ansu-, ņsu- are borrowed from an Iranian language.
> > Since I also think the PIE ablaut vowel e/o/zero originated in
> > PPIE /a/ I propose that Pokorny's two entries should be one, PPIE
> > *aNsu- -> PIE *e(:)su-, with loss of nasalization (which is kept
> > in IIr).
>
>
> How could PIE not have -N- but one of its descendants have
> retained it? Are you attempting to split standard PIE trees in
> some way?

No, I suspect loan either within or from outside IE.

>
> > Further, I think they are related to (identical with?) Pokorny's
> > awes- ,leuchten', bes. vom Tagesanbruch;
> > ă:us-, wes-, us-; (ă:)us-ōs- f. ,Morgenröte';
> > *aus-tero- ,östlich' ... ;
> > auso- ,Gold'.
> > which should then be PPIE *aNs- -> PIE *aUs-,
> > which would mesh nicely with the supreme god being master of the
> > Zodiac, ie. the sun.
>
>
> The sun is not the Zodiac. All that glitters is not gold.

I agree that my sentence can be read that way, but that reading is obviously wrong. But Brian already covered that.

>
> >
> Etruscan usil "sun" gives reason to suspect the whole complex isn't
> IE in origin.
>
>
> So one word shows that?

No, Etruscan usil "sun" gives reason to suspect the whole complex isn't IE in origin. It doesn't prove that conclusively.

> And what if I use four?

Please do.

> And
> Twana sluqat!' ,
> Kl sqWqWëy' ,
> Saa sqWëqWël' 'sun',
> MS skWkWë?lí?l 'sunshine' could show
> Proto-Salish * suqWqWílY'ya 'sun'
> conn. w
> PIE * saxwelyo- ,
> so I guess Etruscan and Salish are closely related and non-IE and
> both or either is the source of many PIE words through borrowing.

That is an interesting theory you present there. I have myself proposed a connection to Salishan, by loan, for the
*λaN- "low; foundation; community"
and
*kaN-t- "subdivision of community"
words.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/65528

> Wow, either you're on to something big or completely wrong.

That was *your* theory, so either you're on to something big or completely wrong.

> You are completely wrong. You connect roots via words w similar
> meaning in only one l., use unproven sound changes, baseless
> timing/borrowing fudges, then bring up one word in Etruscan whose
> origin is completely unknown as proof?

No, Etruscan usil "sun" gives reason to suspect the whole complex isn't IE in origin. It doesn't prove that conclusively.

> You've proven nothing,

So true, and I never claimed I did.

> and can't even begin to because the PIE forms you attempt to use as
> a start are wrong.

Because?

> The standard model is nearly as wrong, though it's not important for
> this discussion.

If you say so.


Torsten