From: thoresenmorten
Message: 66106
Date: 2010-04-22
--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, enlil@... wrote:
>
> Joao, influenced by me suggesting Etruscan /usil/ is 'night',
> not 'sun':
> > What are the another IE cognates of this root *wes-? What are the
> > cognates of Germanic *sku:raz "shower" and Russian sever "north"?
>
> Hmm, I never considered a link between *wes- and /usil/ yet. Thanks!
> As for how IndoEuropean the root is, I think very. There's also
*wesr
> 'spring' and I think the root suggests "darkening". In spring, we
see the
> greenery 'darkening' as it were.
>
> I was most interested so far in determining a more secure
translation of
> a number of taken-for-granted words dependent more on their
contextual
> environment rather than any ad hoc links to other languages, the
latter
> method being the most relied upon and the one that is absolutely
> plaguing the credibility of Tyrrhenian studies and hampering them.
>
> I had arrived at a translation of "night" for /usil/ because of the
> opposition of /tHesane/ and /us(i)lane/ in the Zagreb Mummy text
firstly.
> If /tHesane/ is "morning", which it appears to be upon my own review
> (in fact, *tHes- appears to mean "to rise" based on its
derivatives),
> then the other word would more naturally be "in the evening" (usil,
> *usilan = "night, evening") rather than the current translation
of "at
> noon" (??!). Thus:
>
> Cis=um, tHesan-e uslan-e=c, mlacH-e luri zeri=c zec atHeli-x [...]
> "And on the 3rd, in the morning and in the evening, [they] blessed
> 'luri'(?) and 'zec zeri'(?) for 'atheli'(?) [...]"
>
> Don't ask me what /luri/ is but they apparently blessed it :)
>
> Also, the text /tiur usils/ on a haruspex, at least as indicated by
the
> Etruscan books at the public library immediately available to me,
> would then not be just two floating words meaning "moon" and "sun"
> respectively, but rather a phrase "moon of the night" (usil-s, with
> genitive ending).
>
> So, this being explained, it would be tempting to expect *wes- is
> related to a root *us- considering that so much of the grammar in
> Tyrrhenian languages is uncannily evocative of older stages of IE.
> Other words in /-il/ exist in Etruscan too, notably /avil/ 'age,
year'
> which some have connected with the IE root *xeiu-. However, I would
> have expected that a root like *wes- in IE would be reflected as
> Etruscan *ves- ~ *vas-, not *us-. Then again, I don't really know
> how IE words with *wV- should surface in any related roots in
Tyrrhenian
> anyway. Considering *usilan is in the same form as other deverbals
> like /tHesan/ "morning" (literally "rising"), /turan/ "Venus"
(literally
> "giving") and /alpan/ "willing, being generous", it's conceivable
that
> the word means "darkening (of the day)" and that the simpler
form /usil/,
> being identical in meaning would be of the form like /avil/, itself
> a verbal derivative of *us- 'to darken'. I like the idea. Thanks
Joao!
>
>
> = gLeN
From: "Joao" <josimo70@...> Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 6:40 pm
Subject: Cardinal Points: Vesper and Shower
Latin vesper and Greek hespero points to a PIE *wesperos "evening,
west, sunset". It seems perfect. Too perfect. Is there some
possibility that or Italic *vesperos or Proto-Greek *wesperos were
borrowed from one to another? I think it's strange that so clear
roots is not present in another IE language.Germanic has a cognate
*westaz, with an anomalous Gothic visi- (<*west-si-?).What are the
another IE cognates of this root *wes-? What are the cognates of
Germanic *sku:raz "shower" and Russian sever "north"? Joao SL
Glen wrote:
Some words that I'm re-translating for myself in Etruscan are:
/usil/ -> does NOT mean "sun", probably "night"
/usilane/ -> NOT "at noon" but "in the evening"
Me:
Is it possible that Etruscan usil is related to Proto-Greek wesperos
or Italic vesperos?
Regards
Morten
Glen also writes:
As sad as I am to say this, there is only a smattering of vocabulary
that is certain (in the true sense of the word), particularly terms
denoting family members like /clan/ 'son', /apa/ 'father' and /ati/
'mother' and some very common verbs and _some_ of their tensual forms
like
/tur-/ 'to give' and /turce/ 'has given'. The rest is rabid
theorizing that is often completely divorced of the texts we find and
shamefully dependent on ad hoc theories by madmen of old connecting
the
language to all sorts of things from Latin to Albanian to Ukrainian.
Me:
Taking into consideration the above written, I propose the following:
I believe that /usil-/ means a lot more than night, afternoon or
west. As you may be aware of, the Etruscans were very religious. To
them, as the Egyptians, east represented life and west death. As we
know, the sun at noon starts it's travel towards west, the evening,
the night and the death. The meaning of /usil-/, or /usilane/ for
that matter, in my amateur opinion also may contain a
religious/spiritual aspect that we should not forget.
I believe that the meaning of /usil-/ is "west" AND something
like "of the dead/spirits", late afternoon, "towards the sunset" etc.
I think /usil-/ is related to the sun and not the moon.
Glen: Also, the text /tiur usils/ on a haruspex, at least as
indicated by the Etruscan books at the public library immediately
available to me,
would then not be just two floating words meaning "moon" and "sun"
respectively, but rather a phrase "moon of the night" (usil-s, with
genitive ending).
Me: The moon is the sun of the night, isn't it?
I again beg for pardon mentioning that the word /usil-/ contains the
syllable /si/, which, as you may have seen, I have this feeling is
connected to breathe, spirit, life and death.
Please do remember that our knowledge and understanding of Etruscan
is pretty limited.
Regards
Morten
P.S. As if this was not enough, I would not be surprised if the
Etruscan word /ati/, mother, once was pronounced /at-si/ or /asi/.
Mother has been closely connected to fertility, life and life-giving,
(spirit-making?) in ancient societies.