Re: Saami substrate *sala- "large island"

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...> wrote:

> From: Torsten <tgpedersen@...>
> - In cybalist@... s.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Bent Jørgensen: Stednavneordbog, on the island of Sjælland
> > (Zealand)
> > "
> > 69. Sjælland, isl. skjaldekvad c. 950 Selund, senere vn. former
> > Sjaland, Sjoland er folkeetymologiske omdannelser efter ordet sø +
> > land. I VJb 1231 skrives Sialand, Syaland, først i 16-1700-t.
> > bliver ubrudte former almindelige: Seland, Sæland. Navnet er
> > dannet med suffiks -und af dyrenavnet sæl (reg. D: SÆL 3). ...
> > [and then a lot of unconvincing etymologies]
> > "
> >
> > From 'An essay on substrate studies and the origin of Saami'
> > "
> > 6. sáll- 'major island in the sea' (< PS *sa:l-) ||
> > Sállan : Sállam- (Ákn/Hám) ||
> > Sállan : Sállam- (MVá) ||
> > Sállir (Norw. Kvaløy, earlier Salarøy ? < Saami) ||
> > Dávdnesálla ? < *ta:vme:-sa: lë, cf Norwegian Tamsøy (< Saami)
> > (Lea).
> > The element sáll(a)- appears in four island names. The first
> > three of these denote major islands in the sea, and even the
> > fourth, Dávdnesálla, belongs to the largest island in the fjord
> > Porsángu.
> > "
>
> HÃ¥ndbog i danske stednavne:
> '-UND, afledningsendelse (suffiks), der bruges i adjektivdannelse.
> Det er indoeuropæisk og altså ældgammelt, findes i alle nordiske
> sprog. Undertiden er det blevet til -indi el. -endi. I stn. er
> betydningen noget i retning af "forsynet med".
>
> 1. Almind s. Brusk h. *1231 Almund (æsysæl). Se reg. E:
>
> 1. Almind s. Lysgård h. *1451 Almind, 1525 Almyne.
> Tidl. vist med urette tolket som identisk med subst. glda. almænni
> "almue", sål. endnu Ib Lumholt: Ordforrådet i Sokkelund herreds
> marknavne (1967) p. 39. I virkeligheden er det efter Hald en
> und-afledning af trænavnet ELM, se reg. C, og -und er blevet til
> -ind.
> ANM. Mulig kan skelnes ml. to beslægtede ord:
> 1) det før nævnte almænni, vn. almenni "almue, fællesskab", jfr.
> 1b. Alminde, Landet s. Lolland Sønder h. 1481 Almynne, her med
> samme betydning som almænning "hvad der hører til almuen, spec.
> udyrket fællesjord" og
> 2) ænyda. almind "almue". De to ord vil naturligt falde sammen.
> Jfr. DS III, xvii; X, 151; XII, 172; XIV, 31; XV, 103.
>
> 2. Allindelille, Haraldsted s. Ringsted h. 1257 Alunde paruum.
> Allindemagle s. Ringsted h. 1317 Alendæ, 1396 Alendæmaglæ.
> Afledning med -und af trænavnet al, se reg. C: EL 14, men også
> mulighed for ordet lænde. Se reg. A: LÆNDE 1.
>
> 3. Anholt, *1231 Anund. Se reg. D: AND og reg. G: 6.
>
> 4. Borren, ø, nu landfast med Møn, Damsholte s. Mønbo h. *1231
> Burgund. Se reg. G.
>
> 5. Davinde s. Åsum h. 1397 Davinde, 1542 Davinge.
> Forleddet mul. beslægtet med no. og sv. dial. dave "vandpyt", altså
> "stedet hvor der er fugtigt". DS XIV, 104.
>
> 6. Øster og Vester Hassing s. Kær h. Se reg. A: HAS 5.
>
> 7. Jegindø s. Refs h. *1231 Ekund. Reg. G: 45. Trænavnet eg, e
> diftongeret til je, omtydning til -ø.
>
> 8. Laven, Linå s. Gjern h. Se reg. A: LØ:GH 4.
>
> 9. Legind, Lødderup s. Morsø Sønder h. Se reg. A: LEJD 4.
>
> 10. Malling s. Ning h. Se reg. A: *MAL 3, INGE 166.
>
> 11. Mygind s. Sønderhald h. 1396 Mygund.
> Forleddet subst. møg, glda. myk, altså et opr. *Mykiund. Betydning
> "stedet hvor der er gødning" el. "stedet med frugtbar jordbund".
> Hald VS 214.
>
> 12. Røgind, Kobberup s. Fjends h. Røgind, No s. Hind h.
> Røgind (Røgen) s. Gjern h. Se reg. A: RØGEL 3.
>
> 13. Sjælland, se reg. D: SÆL 3, reg. G: 69.
>
> 14. Spørring s. V. Lisbjerg h. Se reg. A: SPOR 3, INGE 171.'
>
> Note the Dávdne- of Dávdnesálla vs. Davinde on Fyn. I'm not aware
> of any outside cognates of the proposed no., Sw. dial. dave
> "puddle" which means it might be substrate that too like the many
> tree names also proposed as root of other placenames in -ind, -und
> (*aik- has supposed cognates in Gk and Lat., but both places with
> ai-/ae-, which would hardly be the case for a non-substrate IE
> word).
>
> Almind seems to be Elmet with another suffix (but -ind- and -iþi
> seem to belong to the same substrate).
>
> Now suppose the root in question was something like *san,-l-, with
> nasalization loss *sal-, with 'hardening' and nasalization loss
> *saG-l-, we could get both
> *saIG-a- > *saiwa- "sea",

ie. *saG-ya > *sawya- > *saiwa "sea"

> *saG-l-j- > *seglj- "to sail" and

*saN-l- > Fr. cingl-er "to sail"

> *san,-l-k- ->
> *sulk- "navigable passage" ->
> "passable place on land" -> "gully, furrow"
> out of it? All related (as an a-form of Rozwadowski's change) to
> the numerous *sen,- "wetness" related roots, eg the discussion
> starting in
> http://tech. groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/43771
>
> I'll throw in Engl. sedge for good measure.
>
> Since you're dealing with *san-, what's the deal with sand
> < ? *sandaz
> There's also French sable < ? Greek sammelos (vel sim.) right?
> No idea about sand in Slavic or Baltic

Here are some sandy links:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/39637
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/58925
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/59434
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/59469
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/60164
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/61560
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/64243
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/santa


Prellwitz:
Etymologisches Wörterbuch der Griechischen Sprache

'só:kho: (dia-, kata-) "grind" (Herdt.):
from psó:kho:, as sapphó: from psapphó:.
Further sákhnos "crumbly".
Cf further
saíro:, sathrós, sé:s, siagó:n, sítos.
Cf Kretschmer KZ. 31, 420. Fick BB. 26, 115.

psámathos f. "sand" (Hom.): with
pse:~n, psó:kho: "grind",
pso:~khos "dust, sand",
psé:gma dust;
Sanskrit bhas "grind, chew",
bhasita-s "turned to ashes", whence
Lat. hare:na = Sabell. fasena "sand"?
Or to Ir. ganem "sand"?
S. Strachan in Walde Lat. et. Wb. 281.
As bhs- already before Greek alternated with s-,
ámathos and ámmos (qv.) also belong here.
Kretschmer KZ. 31, 420.
Cf só:kho:.

psámmos "sand" (Hom.):
*psaph-mos to
Latin sábulum "sand" (*bhsa-bhlom, cf psa-pharós, or *bhsa-dhlo-m) also von pse:~n wie auch psámathos (qv.) and pse:~phos.
A reminiscence of the old wider sense "ground, chewed stuff" are
psammé:n: "barley grains, b. flour",
psammatízousa: pso:mízousa and further
phámme: (*bhasma:): "barley grains, b. flour",
psámmata: sparágmata (Hes.).
After the proportion
psámmos to psámathos arose
ámmos to ámathos.'

Ernout-Meillet
'sabulum, -i: (sabulo:, -onis m.; syncopated forms sablum, sablo: in Venant. Fort. and in the glosses) n.:
"sand"; and especially "coarse sand, gravel".
Attested since Varro; technical.
Derivatives:
sabulo:sus;
sabule:ta, -o:rum: sand quarries (Plin.) and
*sabellum (M.L.7481), M.L.7484,5,6.
Gmc.: Low German zavel.

There is a connectione with other names for "sand",
Gr. psámmos and ámmos, psámathos and ámathos (beside psapharós "fin"?), with
ON sandr et
OHG sampt, and even with
Arm. awaz.
but one can't get closer than that.
Mot populaire, the original form of which we can't reconstruct; the single -m- of psámathos, ámathos shows that -mm- in psámmos, ámmos is expressive; the -b- in sabulum, which may be from *-bh-, agrees with the -w- of Arm. awaz.

saburra, -ae f.:
ballast; whence
saburro:, -a:s;
saburra:lis, -a:rius.
Ancient (Pl.), M.L.7487-88.
Technical term, suspected of being a loan, which resembles the names Mamurra, Suburra.'


The Low German zavel would be < *sawVl- from which, with 'Venetic Verschärfung' we'd also get *sabVl-. Note the technical and maritime character of the words, most likely the sand used for ballast was the sand they dug up looking for (*saN- >) *saw- "brine".


So perhaps the *saN- word should be *ps-aN-?

http://runeberg.org/svetym/0772.html
[sabba, Sw. dial., be slow etc, see under sagga.]

http://runeberg.org/svetym/0773.html
'sagga "talk constantly, shout", Strandberg, Heidenstam,
in dial.: "be slow or filthy/sluggish" ('sölig') -
Norw. sagga, "walk heavily or slowly",
Da. dial. sagge, cf
Sw. dial. sagger, sagga, Norw. sagg "slow or stupid person".
A kind of intensive formations, probably not to be separated from
Sw. dial. sagga v. "drizzle",
Norw. saggjen "heavy with humidity",
Icel. saggi "humidity" etc,
with intensive lengthening of g (cf skadda, dimma) of a
Gmc root sa3-, cf
OSlav. soku "sap".
Corr. semantic development in
Sw. dial. sabba "be slow, filthy/sluggish: sav.
Cf Torp Etym. ordb. p. 564.'

"walking in sand", it seems.
Cf fr. sabot "clog", and
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sabotage
"to walk noisily, bungle, sabotage"


Torsten