Re: The etymology of herold

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

>
> --- On Thu, 1/21/10, Torsten <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@... s.com, "gknysh" <gknysh@> wrote:
> > --- In cybalist@... s.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@ > wrote:
>
> > > After his defeat to Caesar in 58 BCE, Ariovistus sought refuge
> > > with his brother-in-law, king Voccio of Noricum,
> >
> > GK: IMHO I doubt Ariovistus would have dared to show his facies
> > in Noricum sfter the Rhine debacle. "Where's my sister you
> > $%*#$$&!!!" shouted Voccio...
>
> Voccio shifted sides in 48 BCE.
> http://www.unrv.com/provinces/noricum.php
> He seems like a calculating character not given to temperamental
> outbursts. He would have needed any experienced military leaders he
> could get in the upcoming struggle with Burebista's Dacians and the
> potential conflicts with the Romans. But he might of course also
> have killed him as a matter of political expediency.
>
> *****GK: I just don't see Ariovistus running in that direction.*****

Erh, okay.

> > I prefer the hypothesis that he was slain somewhere on the road,
> > along with many other Suebi.
>
> On the road to ...?
>
> ****GK: The old home, along with other Suebi.*****
>
> > Since he likely kept his shield (cf. Tacitus G,6) and "fled to
> > fight another day" his own Suebi wouldn't have killed him.
>
> Let me do that one better: Since Caesar says his wife was killed
> and not that he was, he probably wasn't, or he would have.
>
> ****GK: Not necessarily.*****

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM
2:20

> > And Germanic rancor at his death in 54 BCE was associated with
> > the Romans.
>
> 'Dolor' means neither 'indignation' nor 'rancor', it means 'sorrow'
> and 'pain'.
>
> ****GK: Well, the Perseus people have adopted "great indignation"
> as a translation.

No, "indignation", they they translated 'magno' as "great".

> In any case, the point is that the Germanics (esp. the Suebians)
> blamed the Romans (ultimately) for Ariovistus' demise.

That is probably their point, and it corresponds to nothing in Caesar's text. If anybody here thinks different, I'd like to hear about it.

> The rest is your usual red herring deflection.*****

Why do you always react that way when you're caught with your hand in the cookie jar?

> Douleur
> http://en.wiktionar y.org/wiki/ douleur
> dolore.
> http://www.yourdict ionary.com/ con-dolore

Ernout-Meillet:
'doleo:, -e:s, -ui: (dolitus sum attesté épigraphiquement), -itum, -e:re
(formes tardives doleunt, dolie:ns):
éprouver de la douleur, avoir mal,
souffrir (physiquement et moralement).
S'emploie impersonnellement:
Pl., Men.439, mihi dolebit, non tibi, si quid ego stulte fecero;
mais le plus souvent avec un sujet animé ou inanimé:
Ter., Hau.934, ah! nescis quam doleam;
Pl. Mer.388, animus mihi dolet;
absolument ou avec un complément à l'accusatif (subjectif ou objectif):
oculos dolere Front., Amic.16;
meum casum luctumque doluerunt Cic., Sest.69,145, ou à l'ablatif, seul ou précédé de ab, de:, ex.
- Ancien, usuel. Panroman.
M. L. 2721.

Formes nominales, dérivés et composés:
dolor: douleur. Ancien, usuel, panroman, M.L.2724;
dolo:ro:sus (tardif), M.L.2725; et
indolo:ris, -rius, traduction tardive de `anó:dunos,
indolo:ria f., indolo:ra:re, M.L.4381;
dolidus (cf. pauor, pauidus, etc.), non attesté avant Cael.Aurel.;
dolentia f. (arch., Laevius) dérivé de
dole:ns, dont Cicéron a formé
indolentia pour traduire `apátheia comme
indole:ns traduit `apathé:s;
-dolium, dans le subst. plautinien cordolium, d'où
dolium. CIL V 1739, rimant avec gaudium;
dolito:,-a:s: être douloureux. (Caton).

Rapproché ordinairement de dolo:;
le sens premier sérait "recevoir des coups, être battu":
caput mihi dolet "la tête me bat", d'où
"la tète me fait mal, j'ai mal à la tête".

Étymologie incertaine.

> Indignation and rancor is what you feel if something is done to you
> unjustly by somebody. Sorrow and pain is what you feel if something
> happens to you.
> Get it? Now get your thumb off the scale.
>
> ****GK: Just keep sucking on yours. Doesn't bother me.*****

I know.

> > Ockham would prefer this scenario (:=)).****
>
> I don't think Occam mentioned mistranslation as a methodology.
>
> ****GK: He rather preferred to reject unecessarily speculative and
> complicated "solutions" like your notion of Ariovistus the priest
> etc.., and he  didn't dabble in red herring "methodology" if such
> cheap debating ploys can be dignified by the term.*****

I don't think Occam mentioned mistranslation as a methodology.


Torsten