Re: Morimarusa

From: Torsten
Message: 65639
Date: 2010-01-14

--- In, "gknysh" <gknysh@...> wrote:
> --- In, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> >
> > Germanic expansion from Przeworsk (Suevi)
> > >
> > > GK: This has been Torsten's mantra for years. Pity that he
> > > hasn't adduced one shred of convincing evidence in its favour.
> > > Germanic expansion eventually englobed the area of the
> > > Przeworsk culture ,largely created by incoming Germanics from
> > > the West and Northwest. And these "Przeworskers" did
> > > participate in the Suevan expansion to the West under
> > > Ariovistus and his successors. But the view that Przeworsk was
> > > the "locus a quo" is unproved fantasy.
> >
> > From a linguistics point of view,
> ****GK: (1)Insufficient per se.

I was talking about the spread of the Germanic language. You are not making sense.

(2) Let's have some quotes from reputable linguists.

Yes, let linguists who disagree speak up now.

> ****
> it's the best candidate. S Germany was archeologically Celtic before Ariovistus,
> ****GK: Archaeologically, Celtic culture had largely if not
> completely disappeared from S. Germany long before Ariovistus.


> Not Celtic presence however, if we are to believe Caesar's comment
> about the Volcae in DBG 6:24 (which also would imply that Germanics
> and Celts shared a common culture in S. Germany as late as 53 BCE).

Caesar tells us that the Germani and Celts didn't willingly share much in S. Germany.

> NW Germany and Holland spoke NWBlock.
> ****GK: This is problematic. The date of NWBlock speech replacement
> by Germanic is far from clear.****

Date is not interesting here. Cause is.

> Jastorf did not expand into S Germany.
> ****GK: Elbe Germanic (into which Jastorf had morphed) certainly
> did.***

> As for the ancestry of the Przeworsk language, the language of
> Jastorf is one candidate,
> ****GK: we know of no other. There were also Celts and Venedi in the area who contributed to the rise of the culture (particularly the Celts) but their language wasn't Germanic.*****
> but it is worrying that we can't identify any para-Germanic
> toponyms within its area.
> ****GK: Which area? Jastorf? Przeworsk?

Within Jastorf.

> BTW, Jastorf contributed to the rise of other Germanic-speaking
> areas: Oksywie and Poeneshti-Lukashovka, and was also a noticeable
> though not linguistically dominant presence in Zarubinia.

What do we know of linguistic presence in Zarubinia?

> Finally: there is no plausible explanation as to how Germanic
> would have spread from a Przeworsk heartland to Scandinavia,

Udolph and several others argue on the basis of placenames that Scandinavia can't been part of the Germanic-speaking heartland

> or to neighbouring "Oksywia" or further southeast (Bastarnia).*****

From Przeworsk to Bastarnia? Is there any other way?