Re: Morimarusa

From: Torsten
Message: 65582
Date: 2010-01-02

--- In, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:
> --- In, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> >
> > > Having done some poking around at <Chatti> and <Mattium>, I
> > > have not found a credible continuation of <Chatti> at all. The
> > > name seems to have died out when the remnants of the tribe
> > > merged into the Franks. The name <Hassi>, <Hessi>, etc. (first
> > > <ad Chassus> 699) cannot be the same, despite valiant attempts
> > > by several scholars to rationalize the -ss-. This is in
> > > contrast to <Chattuarii>, which does have several secure
> > > continuations.
> >
> > It cannot be the same *Germanic* word, I suppose you mean. It is
> > most likely the same word in the donor language, whichever that
> > was. I've argued that the *kant- "regiment, flank, people" word
> > ultimately is a wanderword, since it occurs all the way through
> > Asia, along with *LuN- "(unordered) file, whole people", but I
> > think I recall that the -tt-/-ss- alternation existed only in
> > Europe.
> >
> > Kuhn's 'Chatti und Mattium, die langen Tenues des
> > Altgermanischen' is in the file section, for those interested
> > (Brian?).
> I do have a copy of the paper, and Kuhn raises several issues which
> I have planned for several months to address in separate postings.
> I will summarize some of these matters today.
> First, regarding (unshifted) Proto-Germanic long tenues, I believe
> they pass through Grimm-Verner-Kluge unscathed to remain Common
> Germanic long tenues. I have only two examples. The first, Gothic
> <atte:kan> 'to touch' (commonly cited in the simplex, which is not
> attested)

I didn't know that. Do you think the Romance *attak- etc root is related?

> in my view involves PGmc *at-te:g-, by sandhi from
> *ad-te:g-, from PIE *teh2g-. Details are in my posting on 'take'.

> The second is the set of 'up' words with *-pp-, which I regard as
> resulting from a double preposition in PGmc.
> Second, regarding <Chatti> and <Chattuarii>, I think both are
> regular Gmc. formations, with -tt- from Kluge's Law, and the second
> probably does mean 'Hutleute' as Kluge suggested. I am not sure if
> <Chatti> has to do with helmets or hats, however. Conceivably it
> meant 'Joined Ones' or the like. This needs more work. Kuhn has
> legitimate questions about 'rain', 'thane', and some other words,
> including the dreaded 'oven', but Kluge's Law works quite well as
> an explanation for a large number of Gmc. words, and rather than
> discarding it, I think we should try to handle the apparent
> exceptions individually.

I think I'll stick with my *kant- "division, ordered formation of warriors, (sub)tribe".

> Third, regarding <Mattium>, <Mattiacum>, and <Mettis>, I think the
> base *matti- is non-IE, but I do not connect it with French <motte>
> 'hill' and the like. I think instead it belongs with West
> Mediterranean *matta 'reed', 'reedy spot', 'underbrush' etc., also
> 'reed mat' whence Latin <matta> and secondary borrowings into Gmc.
> languages. The toponomastic use of <-metz> in former Chattic
> territory (discussed somewhat by Arnold, Ansiedlungen) does not fit
> 'hill' very well, but 'reedy spot' works for place-names like
> <Aumetz>.

I proposed a few things about that root

I think the root is ultimately from *n,Wod- "water", cf.

Fortunately we know what happened to -t-t- in IE, since that's what we have in ppp's of roots in -t: they became either -st- or -ss- (NWEurope). So the *mass- forms must be NWEuropean (surprise!) and the *matt- forms para-IE (and both originally from *n,Want-?)

> The Chattic personal name <Gandestrius> probably
> contains WMed *ganda 'gravel', 'scree', 'sterile land' etc. but the
> rest of it looks like IE suffixation, cf. Lat. <terrestris> etc.
> We do have *ganda in a few place-names and the apa-name <Gennep> as
> well. In my view the Chatti spoke a Gmc. dialect, and before them
> a non-Gmc. IE-speaking group was there, and before them a non-IE
> group.

I think the Chatti spoke Germanic, the lingua franca which was the native language of the Sueui, only after long and unpleasant contact with them.