From: dgkilday57
Message: 65457
Date: 2009-11-21
>It had to antedate Grimm's shift. For me to be convinced that such a formation, with genitival /s/ between two consonants in the middle of a compound, could exist in any IE language at the time and place in question, I would need other plausible examples.
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > In his paper on 'thousand', "Akzentstudien" §1 (IF 6:344-9,
> > > > 1896), Hirt argued forcefully against the Vigfusson-Bugge
> > > > explanation as a compound 'Schwellhundert(schaft)' vel sim.,
> > > > seeing the attested forms with /h/ (which are restricted to
> > > > Frankish and part of North Germanic) as resulting from
> > > > folk-etymological contamination with 'hundred'. He analyzed
> > > > Gothic <þu:sundi> (originally 'Fülle, Menge') as derived from
> > > > an adjectival *þu:s- like <hulundi> from *hula-; this *þu:s- in
> > > > our notation reflects an extended zero-grade IE *tuh1-s- from
> > > > *teuh1- 'to swell', otherwise agreeing with the compound
> > > > explanation. He then found that the resemblance among
> > > > Germanic, Baltic, and Slavic forms of 'thousand' admitted
> > > > neither a satisfactory IE protoform nor a satisfactory
> > > > borrowing from Gmc. into Balto-Slavic, and concluded thus:
> > > >
> > > > "Ich kenne in der That keinen Punkt, der für eine nähere
> > > > Verwandtschaft des Lit.-Slavischen und Germanischen spräche, ja
> > > > mir scheint sogar eine recht bedeutende Kluft zwischen beiden
> > > > zu bestehen, eine Kluft, die auf alte Trennung durch ein
> > > > anderes Volk schliessen lässt."
> > > >
> > > > Whether the difficulty with 'thousand' can be resolved by
> > > > assuming NOB origin, I cannot say.
> > >
> > > *tout-/tu:t-s-k^ant-/-k^unt- (metathesis in Lith. tukst- ?) in
> > > which *tout-/tu:t-s is genitive of *tout-/tu:t- "all; totality"
> > > and ka^nt-/k^unt- is my usual "troop" word is good enough for me.
> > > "Troop of all".
> > > And I'm beginning to wonder whether the IE formant -ent-/-ont- is
> > > related.
> >
> > At the time-depth in question, would we not expect the first
> > element of such a compound to exhibit the stem-form, as in
> > Alamanni, Alaric, Teutorix, etc.?
>
> Erh, what is the time depth in question? My idea is that the whole *tout-/tu:t-s-k^ant-/-k^unt- thing is a loan anyway and that that form is not necessarily the one the word had at the time of borrowing (ie. it might have had some phonetic development within the unknown donor language itself).
> > Postulating a 'beeswax'-like formation with infixed genitive seemsBut again, we need other evidence for such formations in NOB (or whatever we decide to call the pre-Baltic IE substrate responsible for Rozwandowski's change).
> > to me like a serious anachronism.
>
> In IE, yes, not necessarily one of the descendant languages.
> > And *-tsk^- in the middle of such a compound should have yieldedThat might help explain folk-etymological insertion (or retention) of /h/ in Old Norse and Frankish, but we still need to account for the absence of /h/ in the Gothic word. Then again we do have <carrago> 'circle of wagons' in Vegetius and Ammianus, and if this represents the compound 'car-hedge' (thus Kluge), it is an example of practically contemporary loss of /h/ in a compound (unless the Latin authors simply had no convenient way of rendering *-rrx-, since <rrh> would look like the middle of a Greek word).
> > *-Tsk- in Germanic, preserved in Gothic at least. Tsk, tsk, tsk ...
>
> Oh. German deutsch, Da., Sw. tysk. Tsk, tsk.
> But I admit that more than phonetically I like it semantically:
> hunda-faþ- "centurion", leader of a *kant- in a people consisting of several *kant-'s,
> þus-hundi-faþ- "generalissimo", leader of all the *kant-'s.
> BTW, how do you like this oneYeah, right, the sound of swelling, the way /s/ is the sound of silence. Hello darkness, my old friend. This might have been brought into the Nostratic-L discussion on Basque <onddi> etc. several months ago.
>
> UEW
> 'ton,V- (tan,V-) '(auf/an)schwellen' FU
> ? Syrj.
> S dundi-, P tundi- (intr.) '(an/auf)schwellen (z. B. Körper, Bauch infolge einer Krankheit)',
> PO dundi.- 'schwellen (vom Magen)' |
>
> ? ung. dagad '(auf)schwellen', dagaszt- 'schwellen; kneten' (151619): ffeltagaztot, JordK 34).
>
> Syrj. d und ung. d, szt sind Ableitungssuffixe.
>
> Die Zusammenstellung ist nur im Falle eines Lautwandels
> syrj. *dun,-d > *dum-d od. *dun,-d -> dund- bzw. ung. *n, >*n,k > g richtig. Das anlautende (t > ) d ist unter dem Einfluß des inlautenden syrj. nd bzw. ung. g im Sonderleben der syrj. und ung. Sprache entstanden.
>
> Onomat.
> Wog. tan,ert- usw. 'drücken' und ostj. ten,&rt- 'pressen, drücken' (Wichmann. FUF 11:233, vgl. Mikola: NéprNytud. 8:23) können wegen des ursprünglich palalalcn Vokals nicht hierher gehören.'Reminds of Gmc. *todd-, but we cannot simply change /dd/ to /gg/ in this context, can we?
>
> or this one
>
> 'tan,ka 'Quaste, Troddel, Franse' Finno-Permic
> Lapp.
> N duog'ge -gg- 'lump of hair, lump of wool; tangled beard',
> L tuogge: 'Knoten, Knäuel von etw. Verfilztem, Verwickeltem
> (z.B. von Haaren, Wolle)', (T. I. Itk., WbKKlp. 614)
> Ko. Not. tua`Gka- 'sich verfitzen (z.B. Haar, Wolle)' |
>
> wotj. S K G tug 'Quaste, Troddel, Franse' |
>
> syrj. S Ud. tug (tugj-) 'Quaste, Troddel;
> (Ud. auch) Haarflechte, -zopf.'
> or this oneThis looks semantically more like the 'Zapfen' group, but I can see no principled way to fit it in, and the root-vowel is difficult.
>
> 'tun,ke- 'drängen, hineindrängen, dringen, stopfen, hineinstecken' FU
> Finn. tunke- 'drängen, hineindrängen, dringen';
> est. tungi- 'dringen, sich drängen' |
>
> mord. E M tongo- 'hineinstecken' |
>
> ? wog. (WV 111) TJ P tokr-, KU So. toxr- 'stopfen' |
>
> ung. dug- 'stopfen, einstecken, verbergen'.
>
> Vgl. alt. *tïG ~ *tïn, ~ *tïq:
> türk. tïG 'stark, dicht', tïG- 'abstumpfen, stopfen',
> mong. c^igiraq 'massiv, stark', c^igj^i- 'stopfen, pfropfen'.'
>
> or
>
> 'tun,a Kern' FW
> Finn. tuma, (dial.) tuuma, tuumi 'Kern, Zellkern';
> est. tuum (Gen. tuume, tuuma) 'Kern (in der Samenschale)'
> (? > wot. tu:mi 'marjan luu, siemen; Stein der Beere, Kern') |
>
> mord. E tov, ton,, M tov 'Kern (Nußkern usw.)' |
>
> tscher. KB ton,, JU tomu, C tom 'Kern'.
>
> Finn. dial. und est. uu ist das Ergebnis einer sekundären Dehnung.
>
> Finn. m entspricht sporadisch einem *n,.'
>
> or this one
>
> 'tuppa- 'stopfen, füllen' FW
> ? Finn. tuppaa- 'stopfen, packen, zwängen, drängen; dringen, sich drängen', tuppaa-täyteen 'vollstopfen' |
>
> ? mord.
> E topavt´e-, M topafto- 'füllen, sättigen, befriedigen',
> E M topod´e- 'voll werden, satt werden; genügen; ausreichen'.
>
> Finn. aa < *aða und mord. vt´e, d´e sind Ableitungssuffixe.
> Auf die Bedeutung und Verbreitung des finn. Wortes hat schwed. stoppa 'stopfen' eingewirkt, das eine ähnliche Lautform und Bedeutung hat [yeah, right].'
> or this oneCf. Tungri??
>
> de Vries
> 'þungr adj. 'schwer',
> nisl. þungur, fär. tungur, nnorw. schw. dä. tung.
> Dazu viell.
> langob. -gathungi 'mann eines gesellschaftlichen ranges'
> (v. Grienberger AfdA 23, 1896, 130).
> - asl. ta,ga 'beschwerde', lit. tìngiu, tingéti 'träge sein' (IEW 1067),Pokorny does have the habit of making excessive use of Erweiterungen; this would be more convincing (as you have noted) if reasonable semantic or functional values could be assigned to the extensions. I think the root *teuh1- is valid, but not everything assigned there by P. belongs there; we may have borrowings between IE and Uralic in both directions, and certainly borrowings from other sources. But it seems rash to propose assigning the WHOLE FAMILY to a third source. That is merely passing the lumping problem from the IEW and UEW to an unwritten third dictionary.
> vgl. noch toch. B tan.k-, A tän.k- 'verhindern' (v. Windekens 135).
>
> vgl. þyngd, þyngja 1 und þyngsl.'
>
> Obviously the Uralic, FU etc entries are no better or no worse interconnected than Pokorny's 'te:u-, t&u-, tew&-, two:-, tu(:)- "schwellen"; erweitert mit bh, g, k, 1, m, n, r, s, t;' root, and the best solution seems to me again to assign this family to a third language.