Re: Rumanian uger and Latin u:ber

alexandru_mg3 schrieb:

>
>
>
> Rumanian uger 'udder' (http://dexonline.ro/search.php?cuv=uger
> <http://dexonline.ro/search.php?cuv=uger>) is considered to be
> originated from Latin u:ber based on a supposed transformation Lat.
> V-b-V > Rum. V-g-V (see also Romanian rug)-> this supposed
> transformation ignores the Aromanian from udzire...
>
> Usually Latin intervocalic-b dissapeared in Romanian (caballus > cal)
> with 'very few exceptions' ...uger being considred as 'one of them'..
>
> The Indo-European reconstructed form for <udder> is *h1uhdH-r. /
> *h1ouhdH-r. (Skt. u':dhar, etc...)
>
> The IE form *h1uhdH-r., regularly, would give in Rumanian-Substratum
> *u:dir- > [u:> u ; di>dzi] > Common-Rumanian *udzir- > [dzi > g^] >
> Rumanian *ugir-
>
> The Aromanian form is <udzir(e)> that fits perfectly the Common Rumanian
> form <udzir->
>
> Now the alternative etymology is Latin u:ber > Aromanian udzire ~ Rum.
> uger ?
> Latin intervocalic b to give -dz- initially or only in Aromanian and
> later g^ in Daco-Rumanian?
>
> Any feedback here?
>
> Marius
>
>

we discussed about "uger" several years ago here on this list. Yet, the
*h1udH-r was not considered to be the point of the derivation whereby I
think at Albanian "gji" udder) which appears to fit the equivalence,
despite of its derivation from Latin as Piotr once pointed out ( yet I
am not sure if Piotr made the derivation).

Phoneticaly I don's see problems, the problems I see are more of
chronological nature of some changes. To be honest, even today I am not
able to say if there has been a time where CommonRommanin have had an
c^(tsh) first or an c (ts) first. The same applies for dz, z, g^, j
where I think that finding out something about the chronology will help
to find out if a word belong to Latin stratum or is a prelatin one.

This is why I am reluctant about some steps. The common accepted change
of g^ > dz should work the another way around too ( dz > g^)

It ought to say that maybe here is not a matter of chronology but a
matter of some dialectal issue.


Alex