--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, johnvertical@... wrote:
>
> > Koryakova, Epimakhov
> > The Urals and Western Siberia in the Bronze and Iron Ages
> > pp. 213-214
> > 'Social Organizations of Eurasian Nomads
> > ...
> > The military-potestal relations were in competence with the
> > organization, usually called a "tribe." The tribe regulated
> > contact with other tribes, to resolve political and military
> > problems. The tribe could be of dual (left and right "wings") or
> > triple (left and right wings plus a center), and was militarily
> > organized by the decimal structure (i.e., units of thousands,
> > hundred, and tens with a hierarchy of leaders) (Taskin 1989). In
> > peacetime, the dispersed character of the nomadic society did not
> > require a great central power thus the power of the chiefs was
> > not very significant, but in wartime, a central power was
> > necessary. The amazing ability of nomads to create large armies
> > in case of military danger or political contests is well known. A
> > leader's personality should not be underestimated in the process
> > of sociopolitical consolidation of nomadic societies. The history
> > of the Hsiung-nu tribes is a good example. Cribb (1991: 55)
> > stresses the territorial aspect of a tribe: "The tribe
> > constitutes the operational unit through which units of
> > population are matched to units of territory."
> > '
> >
> > Like I said ;-)
> > The "wing" aspect of *ka/unt-, the "people/tribe" aspect of it,
> > the decimal system (of Germanic) intertwined with it.
>
> > At least we now know what kind of society the *ka/unt- root is
> > from. Now why did Celts etc also use that organization (Tricassi
> > etc)?
> >
> > Torsten
>
> To add some more fuel for the fire, I notice you have not brought
> up here previously the Finnish region of Satakunta, ie.
> "hundred-_kunta_", which is incidentally also supposedly the region
> of highest prevalence of haplogroup I1.
>
> Check out this guy too:
> http://fidna.info/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3
>
> I think he's off the mark with Rauma however; it's an old loan from
> *strauma "stream" (and not limited to the town's name). I don't see
> how *hvein > kven or, for that matter, vana- > väinä work either
> (vana- > vana however seems to fit just fine). Didn't read all 35
> pages either. Ask BTW if you'd like Finnish translations of any
> particular set.
Thanks.
> However *kunta appears to go back to Proto-Uralic, effectivly
> ruling out European substrate languages.
As I already said, Kuhn's ar-/ur- language is not limited to Europe.
Files > ar-ur- Language > Das letzte Indogermanisch .html
'Hier beschränke ich mich nunmehr auf das, was für mein jetziges Thema, wichtig ist.'
"Here I'll limit myself what is important for my theme today"
'Dies ist zunächst das Verbreitungsgebiet. Es ist größer als das der Kraheschen Namengruppen und scheint weithin die Grenzen Europas, die ich in meine Arbeiten einbezog, zu überschreiten. Es reicht sowohl im Norden und Westen wie im Süden bis an die Außenküsten unseres Erdteils, und im Südosten bis mindestens in die Länder um das Schwarze Meer. Eine Ostgrenze ist mir gänzlich dunkel. In den meisten Ländern sind diese Namen, soweit ich sehe, dünn gestreut. In einigen großen Landschaften fehlen sie so gut wie ganz, in anderen aber geht ihre Häufung weit über den Durchschnitt hinaus. Dieser starke Wechsel gehörte zum ersten, was meine Aufmerksamkeit auf die ur-/ar-Namen lenkte. Der nach meiner Kenntnis an ihnen reichste Raum ist der weite Umkreis der Ardennen. Er läßt sich mit vier Urk-Namen ungefähr
umreißen: im Westen die Ource (zur oberen Seine) und die Ourcq zur Marne), im Norden die alte Insel Urk (in der Zuidersee) und im Osten die Orke (zur Eder in Nordhessen, vgl. NoB. 59, S. 55). Urk als Inselname zeigt uns, wie auch das nun Folgende, zugleich, daß die erörterten Namen nicht auf Flüsse eingeschränkt waren - es sind viele Inselnamen unter ihnen, von Griechenland bis Norwegen hin -.'
"This is above all its distribution area. It is bigger than that of Krahe's name groups and seems by far to go beyond the borders of Europe, which I included in my works. It reaches both in the North and in the West to the outer coasts of our continent, and in the Southeast at least into the countries around the Black Sea. An eastern border is quite in the dark for me. In most of the countries these names, AFAI see, are spread out thinly. In some great landscapes they are practically absent, in others their accumulation goes far above the average. This strong alternation was one of the first things to call my attention to the ur-/ar- names. The AFAIK highest concentration is in the general area of the Ardennes. It can be circumscribed approximately by four Urk names: in the West the Ource (-> upper Seine) and the Ourque (-> Marne), in the North the old island Urk (in the Zuidersee) and in the East the Orke (-> Eder in Northern Hesse...). Urk as island name shows us, as also what follows here, at the same time, that the names mentioned were not confined to rivers - there are many island names among them, from Greece to Norway -."
'Die hiermit im Groben festgelegte, an ur-/ar-Namen besonders reiche Landschaft reicht im Nordosten bis an eine Linie, die ich die Borken-Grenze nenne, da sie ungefähr von der Insel Borkum bis nach Borken in Nordhessen läuft und in ihrer Nähe noch vier andere Orte mit Burk-Namen liegen (s. NoB. 59, 56). Jenseits von ihr folgt dann ein sich tief nach Osten erstreckender Raum, der, von einem schmalen Streifen an der Wasserkante abgesehn, von ur-/ar-Namen nahezu frei ist.'
"The thus coarsely delineated landscape particularly rich in ur-/ar- names stretches in the Northeast to a line I call the Borken border, since it runs approximately from the island of Borkum to Borken in Northern Hesse and since four more locations with Burk- names are situated near it (...). Beyond it follows a space stretching deeply towards the East, which, apart from a narrow band on the water's edge, is nearly free of ur-/ar- names."
> But it occurs to me that Proto-Samic has the sound change *u > *o
> (while Proto-Finnic doesn't), and you kno what Germanic speakers
> would make of that.
Yes.
> Not extensible to central Europe either, however.
Now there's your problem!
> Also the distinction between Uralic *kunta "group, to hunt", "to
> hunt", *kan-ta "to carry" and *kënta "stump, base" is by all
> evidence one inherited from PU; I see no links between the three,
> other than that they have the same consonants.
If you give up your assumption that they are native Uralic words, you will. A common substrate would also explain the occurrences in Western Europe.
> And I have no idea what you are getting at with the other roots
> with *ka- you list in msg #62525.
And ditto.
Torsten