From: george knysh
Message: 65116
Date: 2009-09-24
--- On Thu, 9/24/09, Torsten <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
--- In cybalist@... s.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
>
> --- On Wed, 9/23/09, Torsten <tgpedersen@ ...> wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@... s.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@... s.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@ > wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In cybalist@... s.com, george knysh <gknysh@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > --- On Tue, 9/22/09, Torsten <tgpedersen@ ...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The presence of Yazygi in Illyricum is noted and assumable
> > > > > from statements by Eusebius and Lucanus.
> > > > > http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/65077
> > > > >
> > > > > GK: On second thought, I may have made an incorrect
> > > > > assumption here about Sarmatian intervention in this war. I
> > > > > don't know Eusebius' text, and Harmatta does not reference
> > > > > it. Perhaps the Sarmatians were not part of the Pannonian
> > > > > army after all and their "subjugation" by Tiberius a mere
> > > > > p.r. note by some Roman historian.
> > > >
> >
> > Here's the locus in the second part of Eusebius' Chronicon:
> > 7 CE: 'Tiberius Caesar drives back the Dalmatians and Sarmatians
> > into Roman authority.'
> > http://rbedrosian. com/jerome_ chronicle_ 03_part2. htm
>
>
> GK: Yes. I found it in Latin (Jerome's translation) : "Tiberius
> Caesar Dalmatas, Sarmatasque in Romanam redigit potestatem." That
> sounds firm enough, but is it true? We don't know. It's not
> confirmed by other sources, and the editors of Eusebius point out
> that he was wrong on many counts. (Even here actually, he gives the
> wrong year). What I'd like to see is an annotated version with some
> commentaries. Neither Suetonius nor any other sources says this.
> And the victor title claimed (but not granted) by Tiberius
That's not what Suetonius says.
****GK: Suetonius does not say Tiberius defeated the Sarmatians in Pannonia. In fact he does not say Tiberius defeated tghe Sarmatians at all. He does point out that they raided Moesia in Tiberius' later years.****
> was "Pannonicus" not "Sarmaticus" .
Nor "Dalmaticus" .
****GK: That's one of the things that I find troublesome about Eusebius, who certainly knows Pannonians.****
He was the victor of the Bellum Pannonicum.
> I think old Eusebius was plain wrong (if he indeed wrote this) or
> else we need to interpret it differently. In any case this does not
> prove (even to Harmatta BTW) that Sarmatians had colonized
> Illyria.
Nor to me, for that matter, not to the exclusion of other scenarios. But I'll agree with Harmatta that their presence was possible.
****GK: Harmatta argues for a presence north of the Danube from Pannonia, not for a presence in Pannonia.****
> At the same time, Sarmatians were present in Moesia, according to Cassius Dio, Roman History, 55.29-30:
>
>
> GK: Yes. That too has been known for a long time, but it does
> nothing for you. Sarmatians had been making raids across the Danube
> since the late 2nd c. BCE...
And always made sure to get the last ferry home?
****GK: Except those who were captured and enslaved, or killed. Same thing would apply to Roman raiders north of the Danube prior to the incorporation of Dacia. The fate of individuals does not matter in the larger "settlement" issue.****