From: george knysh
Message: 64772
Date: 2009-08-16
--- On Sun, 8/16/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
--- In cybalist@... s.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
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> --- On Sun, 8/16/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@ ...> wrote:
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> These are two of the three Bastarnian names we know (we know no appellatives) .
>
> http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/13998
>
> GK: AFAIK "Chlonix" is only found in Gibbon (I don't know his source). Henri Hubert's three names are : Clondicus, Cotto [both in Livy 40:57,58], and Talto (Gibbon's "Deldon") which Hubert gets from Muellenhof. Livy has this to say s.a 179 BCE: "The Scordisci were expected to grant a passage to the Bastarnae without any difficulty for neither in speech nor habits were they dissimilar." The Scordisci are usually held to be a Celto-Illyrian or Celto-Thracian complex (depending on their groups' geography). The Bastarnae are even more complicated in early times: a mix of Celts ("Galatae") Germanics ("Sciri") and Getans (with Germanic slowly getting the upper hand). In 179 BCE Livy's "similar speech" would most likely have been a Celtic dialect. Hubert considers the three princely names to be Germanic.
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> (Googling, I find Chl- only in the Gibbons footnote quote, Cl- everywhere else, so I'll assume Cl-)
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> Could they be the regularly Grimm-shifted relative of that Aestian word *gl-a-s- which was loaned into Germanic (thus no Grimm)
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> GK: The Aestii could have been a Celtic group (Tacitus speaks
> of their "British"-like language) /he knew nothing of British
> Veneti/
There is nothing Celtic about them, AFAIK.
But the Aestii, as related here
http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Aestii
might be related to the Osismi/Ostimoi
http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Osismi
who lived next to and allied with the Veneti
http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Veneti_%28Gaul% 29
in Armorica
http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Armorica
the inhabitants of which according to Posidonius were Belgae
http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Belgae
(who were also settled in Britain)
just like the Aestii in the Baltic lived next to and probably borrowed the language of the Baltic Veneti
http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Vistula_Veneti
which explains the long series of *balg- hydronyms from England to Poland
http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/60815
http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/60821
http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/62517
http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/64012
ultimately related to the FU (or substrate to FU) *walg- hydronyms in the east (which means all the western *balg- names have experienced Venetic *w- > *b- shift, which means the Veneti had been there at some time.
Easy, huh?
****GK: It's interesting that neither Pliny nor Ptolemy know anything about "Aestii" while both along with Tacitus have info about the Venedae. All I really had to go on re the "Aestii" was that Tacitan "British" analogy. Could it have referred to a temporary population which was only present there for a brief time in some commercially or politically significant way [i.e. between say 75 and 105 CE] and outmigrated before Marinus of Tyre did his thing?****
Considering the ideology around the Sciri/Bastarnae names, the Bastarnian top dogs probably spoke Germanic from the beginning.
And if the *danu- > Tanew etymology holds, Grim m had taken place in that general area.
****GK: Sounds possible. Though there must also have been a lot of important Celtic-speakers in the middle echelons for Polybius and Livy to have made their comments. At least to the mid-2nd c. BCE****
Torsten