RE : [tied] Re: North of the Somme

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "caotope" <johnvertical@...> wrote:

>
> > > > Finno-Ugric
> > > > 'Hungarian féreg, férge- worm; vermin; noxious animal |
> > > > Komi perk Phthirius pubis |
> > > > Mansi peerk worm.'
> > >
> > > Either of Mansi or Komi may be a loan from the other. Or we can
> > > explain both with *-rkk-, but that would not produce -g- in
> > > Hung.
> > >
> > > > Maybe I'll add this
> > > > fi permu (, perma)
> > > > larva of gadfly (Oedemagena, Hypoderma, etc.);
> > > > tuber on the body of an animal,
> > > > containing such a larva |
> > > > osN pir&m gadfly;
> > > > boil caused by larva (beneath the skin of reindeer);
> > > > pîrm&n, (of reindeer hide:) with holes caused by gadfly
> > > > larvae.
> > >
> > > Once we get into gadflies & such, Uralic also has *parma, in
> > > Finnic, Mari and Khanty at least; and Samic *poaró. Mordvinic
> > > puromo fits better together with the latter. Comparision points
> > > for this side of semantics are to be found on the IE side too.
> >
> > Erh? How did you compute those points?
>
> For "worm", Permic is expected to change *rk > r. Actually, the
> semantic difference between Komi and Mansi is likely a hindrance
> for direct loaning.
>
> *parma is represented regularly by Finnic *parma, Mari *paarmo and
> Khanty _puur@... Mordvinic *u and Samic *oa are both normally from
> *o.
>

a/u 'ablaut' is a feature of the ar-/ur- substrate language (hence the name). On the admissibilty of accepting both NW German pierek and German Bremse into the set cf. on the homonym Bremse "brake"

Kuhn
Anlautend p- im Germanischen

'Auf dies letzte muß ich etwas eingehn, da es auch für die Frage des indogermanischen anlautenden b- Bedeutung hat. Es ist ein Teil einer weit über das Germanische hinaus verbreiteten Erweichung alter Tenues. In unserem Stoffe [Germanic words in p-] steht neben
*plat- „Lappen" *blet (ahd. plez, mhd. blez) und neben
dän. plet „Fleck" isl. blettr (Nr. 4),
neben *pikk- (usw.) „picken"
*bikk- (ags. becca „Picke", mndl. bicken becken = picken pecken, usw., dazu frz. bec „Schnabel" und ital. beccare „hacken" —
Nr. 14), neben *plak- „Platz, Stück Land" *blek (mnd. nd. blek — Nr. 26) und
neben mnd. premese, nd. pra:m prame „Maulklemme" (u. dgl.) gleichbedeutend mhd. nd. bremse (bei Kiliaen auch bremer — Nr. 27).'

> On the IE side it is German _Bremse_, Swedish _broms_ that seem
> like possible connections (and Lithuanian _sparva_ ??)

Good point. On the other hand, if you admit that, why would the semantic distance between "worm" and Phthirius pubis be too large?

> > > Also plain "fly":
> > > F. *kärpä- (Livonian käärmi), Mo. karvo, Ma. karme
> > > with an irregular (non-inherited?) cluster.
> >
> > Metathesis k - p?
>
> I would rather consider the possibility that the "(gad)fly" words
> come from a root of the shape #kwarPa- (with #P some labial),
> specifically "fly" from a de-labialized descendant #karPa, and
> "gadfly" from a de-velarized #parPa. By the semantics we expect
> these words to be closer related than the "worm" group.
>
> > It would seem we have two suffixes, -k and -m. -k is a NWB suffix
> > too. -m is part of the Caland set.
>
> I'm not sure if plain -m works. Substrate loans in western Uralic
> commonly include the correspondence of Mordvinic /v/ vs. /m/
> elsewhere (for example "linden", "fog": F. lehmus, sumu ~ Mo.
> levos, suv). However here we have /p/ in Central Finnic. Unless the
> Livonian form with the expected /m/ means that *p is a later
> (onomatopoetic) variant?

How about my favorite phoneme: /n,W/, the nasal labio-velar?

> Besides, these are common consonants. Suffixes of similar shape
> would be expected to exist in numerous languages (including within
> Uralic itself).
>
> > > Finnic has probably affectiv fronting.
> >
> > Affective... hm.
> > Is that similar to the *vëlki/*volki alternation you mentioned to
> > me?

> No, this is a reasonably common Finnic-internal process, not unlike
> the "expressiv palatalization" in Basque.

Similar to the 'pejorative j" in the Scandinavian languages
(and p-/pt- (< *p-/*pj-) alternations in Greek)?
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/31015



Torsten