Re: That old Ariovistus scenario.

> But here it is: the Roman expansion under Caesar and other field
> commanders in the area where later Romance languages are spoken is
> matched on the other side of the Rhine in the area where later
> Germanic languages were spoken by a number (at least two) with the
> Germanic(?) title of Wod-an- "army leader".
>
> ****GK: But Germanic spread eastward some two centuries before it spread westward (if indeed that is what happened with Ariovistus in the first c. BCE), "protos" or "proto-protos" notwithstanding.

No, Jastorf spread eastward. It might have been Proto (...) Germanic speaking, but in that case we should find Proto (...) Germanic placenames in the western parts of Germania (actually you could argue that's what the IE NWBlock language is, it's linked archaeologically to the Harpsted-Nienburg culture,
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpstedt-Nienburger_Gruppe
(no English version, it seems)
which like Jastorf is descended from the Nordic Bronze Age culture).

> That does not fit the Snorrist scenario. But then neither does the
> career of Ariovistus. There is no discernible relationship between
> a westward movement which began ca. 72 BCE and events further
> east.*****
>
> >
>
> > Let me see if you understand this one: Everywhere the *xarud-
> > name appears you find high percentages of haplotype I
> > (Oppenheimer' s 'Ivan').
>
> > GK: The Wikipedia "Croats" article suggests the haplotype I
> > convergence

...

> > between Croats and Scandinavians is due to events which happened
> > 30,000 years ago, not in the time of Ariovistus.
>
> 30,000 years ago is the time that haplotype broke away from the
> rest. Since historians, also DNA historians by default assume peace
> and quiet and no major take over by a foreign male gene pool where
> they haven't heard of one, they automatically assume that
> everything is founder effect, ie. that those groups were
> distributed the way they are today because people moved into the
> areas we find them in today immediately after the last Ice Age.
> Thus it is a default assumption, based on no further data. However,
> a scenario in conformity with that presented by Snorri
>
> http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre03.htm
>
> ('The Æsir took wives of the land for themselves, and some also for
> their sons; and these kindreds became many in number, so that
> throughout Saxland, and thence all over the region of the north,
> they spread out until their tongue, even the speech of the men of
> Asia, was the native tongue over all these lands.') would explain
> the distribution of haplotype I (there's a map of its distribution
> in the Files under 'Maps, The Orgs of the Brits').
>
> ****GK: Are you saying that the Przeworkers= "the men of Asia"?

Yes.

> Where's your proof? There is no discernible "eastern influence" in
> the constitution of Przeworsk. Snorri's fantasy can't fill the
> gap.****

Maybe Wikipedia can.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przeworsk_culture
'Influences

Scholars view the Przeworsk culture as an amalgam of a series of localized cultures. Preceeded by the Pomeranian culture (especially the Bell-Shaped sub-culture, the Przeowrsk tradition arose due to influences which are considered external to the Vistula basin. The most prominent influences are those of the La Tene (especially in metal-work) and Jastorf cultures.

To the east, in what is now northern Ukraine and southern Belarus, was the Zarubintsy culture, to which it is linked as a larger archaeological complex.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarubintsy_culture
'The Zarubintsy culture was of mixed origins. Valentin Sedov postulates that the culture arose when tribes local to the Pripyat and middle Dnieper basin forged contacts with peoples of the Milograd zone and the Scythian nomads. Malcolm Todd also sees evidence of Celtic influences. The Scythian-Sarmatian influence is evident, especially in pottery, weaponry, domestic objects and personal ornaments.

The bearers of the culture engaged in agriculture and livestock raising as well as hunting. There is evidence they also traded wild animal skins with Black Sea towns. They practiced cremation burials, with the ashes placed in an urn or pit. Settlements include both open sites and hilltop villages defended by ditches and banks, structures built to defend against nomadic tribes from the steppe.'

How will you prove that no Iranian or otherwise hostile group arrived in the Zarubinian culture in the mid first century BCE?


Torsten