From: Rick McCallister
Message: 63556
Date: 2009-03-03
> From: tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...>I don't think so. Except for immigration, the itinerate (i.e. the homeless such as loggers, field hands and miners) and the military, only the wealthy traveled. A trip to the state capital took all day for grandfather in his Model A. It now takes 20 minutes for my uncle. Except for WWI in France and Germany, my grandfather's only trip outside the state was to visit us in Ohio. There were no conferences for schoolmarms that I ever heard of. Until WWII, if people had a farm or a stable profession, they stayed put. My grandfather lived in a relatively cashless society and only bought things that couldn't grown on his farm.
> Subject: [tied] Re: American Dutch dialects
> To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 5:26 AM
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister
> <gabaroo6958@...> wrote:
>
> > . . .
> > >
> > > But you forget one thing: the extreme mobility,
> albeit mostly one
> > > way and once only, of American society at the
> time. If she
> > > struck lucky, that school marm would find a
> husband so important
> > > that he had actually studied on the east coast,
> or at least at the
> > > local state university, where he would have been
> taught by
> > > professors from the east coast.
> > >
> > > > My maternal grandfather was one of the local
> gentry, and later
> > > > in life, was a schoolmaster. He spoke a
> softer more standard
> > > > version of the local WV dialect. He said
> "tomato" instead of
> > > > "mater", etc. but with the local
> intonation.
> > > > Keep in mind that in the 1800s, the r-less
> Boston dialect was
> > > > probably seen as the prestige dialect, but
> it certainly was not
> > > > taught by schoolmarms in Appalachia and the
> Midwest.
> > >
> > > Well, you keep in mind that America always had
> two standards: one
> > > New England / British one for blue-blooded
> Americans and one
> > > 'true' American one for red-blooded
> Americans. On that point it
> > > was similar to Norway in the 19th century: you
> can't use the
> > > language of those you just freed yourself from,
> so to assert your
> > > differentness you have to pick up habits from the
> bottom layer,
> > > in Norway the dialects, in the USA, since there
> was no national
> > > legitimacy to be gained from local dialects, from
> Low New York,
> > > in my opinion, which would have had retroflex
> r's and r-colored
> > > vowels at the time or Brooklynese wouldn't
> have /oI/ today. Place
> > > a school marm in the loyalty conflict between the
> nationally
> > > dubious and mostly breadless New England, and the
> blingbling of
> > > New York; those are the two sociolects her
> successful
> > > husband would have mastered, and you know what
> she will choose.
> >
> > The NY dialect is so different from the Midwest
> dialect, that most
> > Americans pretty much lump it in with the Boston
> accent, and other
> > NE r-less dialects --unless they've traveled. I
> doubt that most
> > non-East Coast Americans could tell them apart.
>
> Can or could? The scenario I claim says New York talk at
> that time
> would have been as different from today's as its ethnic
> composition
> is. Labov says NYC was r-ful. Brooklynese /oi/ says NYC was
> r-ful. If
> you want to shot down my scenario, you should look 19th
> century NYC
> and its talk.
>
> > The Midwest was interesting in that most of the upper
> class was
> > home spun. There weren't too many easterners who
> went there. More
> > often, it was the other way around --the Rockefellers
> and the
> > Bushes came from the Midwest. East Coast money tended
> to go the
> > Pacific Coast, into mines, etc. or South, into cotton
> and
> > railroads. In the Midwest, fortunes came through hard
> work or
> > invention, e.g. Edison and Ford.
>
> They might have been home-spun, but they were refined
> elsewhere. A
> Midwest professional would never be more that a couple of
> steps (and
> down the ladder) away from his colleagues on the East
> Coast. They had
> conferences then too.
>It may, or it may have seeped down from Canada --Andrew would know about it.
> > > > > And since the Sinter Klaas -> Santa
> Claus plays a large role
> > > > > in the American pantheon (just
> kidding), the channel which
> > > > > brought that deity from the Dutch would
> be conducive to
> > > > > language peculiarities too.
> > > > > Remember that similar religions imply
> cultural influence.
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW I read in the archive that
> according to Miguel the
> > > > > retroflex r occurs in both Leids and
> Rotterdams.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, but they also picked up Chivari, etc.
> from the French and
> > > > I don't think we picked up our /r/ from
> them either.
>
> I don't think I claimed that, in which case you would
> have had two
> (three?) r's. Substrate means you might, not must have
> picked up
> something from it.
>
>
> > > Erh, okay. Who they and what on earth is Chivari?
>
> > >
> > What, they don't have it in Denmark?
>
> Never heard of it.
>
> > It's a custom from the Midwest and the Mississippi
> Valley where the
> > bride and groom's family stay up all night banging
> pans and
> > singing. My family, being from WV, didn't have
> this and it's
> > strictly small town, in any case. It goes by various
> forms and
> > spellings: Chivari, Sharivaree, etc.
>
> Does it go back to the Louisiana Purchase?
>But Santa hit the scene thanks to the Saturday Evening Post and other such New York based magazines --not through oral culture. It seems to have spread through the US around the time of the Civil War, c. 1860. Before that, he was called Father Christmas.
> OK, so that's a local custom, but Santa is as Generally
> American as
> the language we were discussing.
>Charivari, etc. exists to urge the couple to do their marital business and not fall asleep.
> > You see traces of it when the groom's friends use
> spray frost to
> > write messages on the car, tie tin cans to the bumper,
> etc.
>
> They do that here too, for whatever reason. Other than
> that, causing a
> ruckus had to do with Christmas and New Year. Sw.
> 'julklapp'
> "Christmas gift" is called so because people
> would bang on people's
> door and then throw in the gift.
>
>
> Torsten