Re: My version

From: Arnaud Fournet
Message: 63181
Date: 2009-02-19

Whatever the reason(s), in Chambers and Trudgill's classification
(see below) this would amount to saying that the varieties of US
English just offer 'accent' variation, not 'dialectal' variation.

> > "['Accent'] refers to the way in which a speaker pronounces, and
> > therefore refers to a variety which is phonetically and/or
> > phonologically different from other varieties. 'Dialect', on the
> > other hand, refers to varieties which are grammatically (and
> > perhaps lexically) as well as phonologically different from
> > other varieties" (J.K. Chambers & P. Trudgill, _Dialectology_,
> > Cambridge Univ. Press, 1980, p. 5).
> >
> > In other words, a difference of 'accent' is a difference between
> > varieties of a language (e.g., General English) which involves
> > only pronunciation; on the contrary, a difference of 'dialect'
> > may involve any or all of syntax, morphology, lexicon, AND
> > pronunciation.

> Your approach is phoney.

That's not _my_ approach (see the bibliographic reference).


This is the reference _you_ chose, midgetuccio mio.

Let's try another one :

1a. A regional or social variety of a language distinguished by
pronunciation, grammar, or vocabulary, especially a variety of speech
differing from the standard literary language or speech pattern of the
culture in which it exists: Cockney is a dialect of English.
b. A variety of language that with other varieties constitutes a single
language of which no single variety is standard: the dialects of Ancient
2. The language peculiar to the members of a group, especially in an
occupation; jargon: the dialect of science.
3. The manner or style of expressing oneself in language or the arts.
4. A language considered as part of a larger family of languages or a
linguistic branch. Not in scientific use: Spanish and French are Romance



> Differences in "accent" (I don't like this word) most often entail
> other differences.

Which ones, provided that we're talking about US English now? Do
differences in 'accent' in US English entail differences in grammar
of some sort?


For your own enlightment, midgetuccio mio :

Usage note :

In many dialects [I add : of American English that is to say], people use as
in place of that in sentences like We are not sure as we want to go or It's
not certain as he left. This construction is not sufficiently well
established to be used in writing.

I suggest as you read that a couple of times. Goddit !?



You should compare some examples from *within* US English to fulfil
the above requirements; comparisons of examples peculiar to US
English with examples peculiar to British English don't count for
the present purpose.


Your own rules
but you lost anyway, midgetuccio.


> > most of 'dialects' of Italian... show variations not only in
> > pronunciation and lexicon, but also in GRAMMAR.
> So what? Most dialects of French also have consistent differences
> in grammar. Subjunctive in Northern French is built with -çh.

Perfect! Therefore, that's a 'dialect' of French following Chambers
and Trudgill's definition, unlike the various forms of pronunciation
of US English, which don't constitute as many 'dialects' of English
if we adhere to that classification.


Che cazzo dici tu, scherzatore massimo !