Re: s-stems in Slavic and Germanic

> However, I did overlook the strong influence of the French on
> English, which perhaps could have strengthened the <-(e)s> plurals
> on their way to becoming the predominant plural formation (I don't
> know, of course, just speculating -- of course there must be many
> papers on this issue).

There was a move towards seeing English as a Creole language arising
from the meeting of Anglo-Saxon and French in post-1066 England some
years back. It was countered with the observation that similar
creole-like processes took place in the area I mentioned: Dutch, Low
German Continental Scandinavian. I counter the counter-argument with
the claim that that area had a non-Germanic substrate, which probably
affected Anglo-Saxon England too.

> However, this would be counter to what Torsten was saying, if
> I understood him correctly:

Erh, not quite.

> according to his argument, the non-native French would be inclined
> to use the <-s> plural on virtually all nouns,

Right.

> where the natives would have a variety of plurals,

Right.

> and then by shibboleth this overfrequent <-s> plural would be felt
> to be incorrect and foreign,

Right.

> leading to drives to correct it and eventually hypercorrect it
> until there would be no more <-s> plurals.

Wrong. That's what Caxton's wyf wants to do. But, historically she's
the loser, Caxton's the winner. Note that he goes overseas to the
Netherlands; he would probably have said 'nestas', not 'neston' vel
sim. when doing business with the Dutch (who cares what conjugation
the stuff is you buy from a foreigner?).

> This seems to be the exact opposite of what occurred in English, so
> I don't think English offers support for Torsten's shibboleth
> hypothesis (or for that matter German).

And that is exactly what happened in German. No Saxon in England would
argue with a Norman that it was eyren, not egges (except out in the
sticks, note that the irregular plural in English, as well as in Dutch
and 'Scandinavian' occurs in 1) body parts and 2) farm animals), but a
Southern German would, against a Hanse trader (if he heard something
similar).


Torsten