Re: Foug- "buy"

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > So is Venetic Boug/Foug-ont- etc "merchant"?
> > > >
> > > > I doubt it. Foug-ont- and related forms are much too
> > > > widespread in Venetic onomastics to be derived from a
> > > > relatively recent occupational designation.
> > >
> > > Relatively recent? What do you mean?
> >
> > The occupation of merchant in classical times was relatively
> > recent. Some of the Greeks thought that the Lydians had invented

it.

>
> Call it trader then. That amber had to get along the trail somehow.
>
> > > > More likely Foug-ont- is a participial form meaning 'Joyous'

or

> > > > 'Bringing Joy' or whatever, more or less along the lines of
> > > > Slavic Radovan.
>
> I note that you provide no reason for your preference.

How about the scarcity of parents willing to name a kid 'Trader'?

> > > Which verb would that be a participle of?
> >
> > PIE *bheug-, whence Latin <fungor>, Sanskrit <bhunk.te>, Armenian
> > <bucanem>, etc., cited by Benveniste in the material you quoted,
> > with the primary sense 'to enjoy'.
> >
> > On the other hand Gothic <bugjan>, Avestan <baog->, <baoxtar>,
> > etc., require a different root *bheugh- 'to undo, untie' vel

sim.,

> > leading in B.'s view to 'to ransom, buy' in Germanic.
>
> It's more economical to see it as having just one sense, ie. "to

free

> (oneself) of a hindrance/encumbrance", leading to the Gothic/English
> sense.

But the Gmc. sense is 'to acquire by paying'. I like B.'s view, and
I fail to understand yours, 'to get rid of' > 'to acquire'??

> > > > Venetic F- and B- do not alternate.
> > >
> > > Pellegrini/Prodoscimi apparently disagree.
> >
> > The closest I can find to a disagreement in your material is the
> > hint at Istria as a boundary between F- and B-. This is hardly
> > equivalent to claiming VENETIC B- from PIE *bh-.
>
> A fine point, considering where tradition places the border between
> Venetic and Illyrian
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetic_language

So we have a Grenzdistrikt where names derived from PIE roots in *bh-
are reflected in Venetic names with F- and Illyrian ones with B-.

> > > > I regard Bukka as a masculine hypocoristic (since Ven. fem.
> > > > hyp.'s regularly have -o) derived from Illyrian substrate,
> > > > meaning 'Cheeky'. I have argued before that the river-name
> > > > Plavis came from Ill., since it has /a/ from */o/ whereas

Ven.

> > > > itself preserves /o/. I do not believe that PIE *bheu- 'to
> > > > swell' etc. had a by-form *beu-,
> > >
> > > Neither do I. Why do you say that?
> >
> > Pokorny and Watkins do admit one, and quite recently Wallace

cited

> > Bukka as an example of Venetic B- continuing PIE *b-. I seldom
> > disagree with Wallace, but I do here.
>
> You'd sort of have to, if you want to keep a hard and fast language
> order in Istria. And for that, you are willing to accept "the

swollen

> one" as a nickname?

I accept Bukka 'Cheeky' as a low-status name in Venetia derived from
Illyrian substrate there, more or less parallel to the Atellan
character Bucco. I see fewer problems with that than I do with
assuming PIE *beu- as a by-form of *bheu-.

> > > > and assignment to Illyro-Japygian substrate explains both

Bukka

> > > > and Latin <bucca> (as well as Bucco, a hyp. cited by Varro)
> > > > without recourse to PIE by-forms.
>
> > > Pellegrini/Prodoscimi (check the quote) assign the boug-/bug-
> > > forms to 'Illyrian', according to them Untermann sees the Bukka
> > > etc forms as hypochoristic forms of Buktor.
> >
> > Apparently Buktor is only attested from Noricum, where the
> > immediate substrate was of Illyrian type, not Venetic. To me it
> > makes more sense that Bukka in Venetia was a freedman's name,
> > originating with the pre-Venetic underclass, which according to

my

> > view had spoken an Illyrian language.
>
> But *-tor is a nomen agentis suffix.

Then we can assign Buktor to *bheug- (as a personal name, cf.
Beatrix) and reject U.'s notion that Bukka is derived from it.

DGK