From: Arnaud Fournet
Message: 62364
Date: 2009-01-05
----- Original Message -----
From: "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...>
>
> Now if that *pa:d thing (note the long vowel) in Swedish meant
> something like "low-lying land" (and there are many promising
> cognates in NWB-land), it could be categorized with all those other
> words with labial having to do with water; that might solve the
> *paþ- "way, path, road" mystery too.
>
> Note that it's a word in p-, so it's not Germanic, it can't be NWB,
>
> =========
>
> Why is it not NWB ?
>
> Even North Saami has NWB words.
> bovttas^ = puffin
> balsa = peat / pedel=peel
> bupmalas = fulmar
> giron = grouse
> c^uodja = (water) sound
If you want to define every loan in Germanic with initial p- as NWB,
the word loses its meaning.
=========
You have made the claim *paTH was not NWB
because it's attested north of the supposed NWB area.
I'm just pointing at the fact this NWB area is probably larger than
your/Kuhn's definition.
A.
=======
> That supposed area from Somme to Rhine clearly does not fit the
> area where those un-Germanic p- words are distributed.
Weser/Aller to Somme/Oise, was Kuhn's definition
=======
This is probably not large enough.
A.
========
> unless it's imported by someone, and on top of that, according to at
> least one of Schmid's examples (Pala vs. Fala)
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/61266
> hydronyms in Scandinavia should be Grimm-shifted.
> This is a tough one.
It gets worse.
=======
Indeed,
Take care you don't mix everything up.
A.
========
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/36030
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/48678
All the villages with *pedese names are placed on a minor stream,
except Petze, and with a more detailed map it might turn there was one
there too.
Uralisches etymologisches Wörterbuch:
'puða-se "Flußarm" U
? Finn. pudas (Gen. putaan) "Flußarm" (> lapp. N buðes-ððas- "the
smaller branch of a river which divides into two branches for a short
distance", russ. púdas, pudás "enger Flußarm, Bucht") |
? lapp. N bo,vces -k'c- bo,k'ca "winding creek in a river (where an
island is formed when the river is in flood)", ...
Kolt-Saami Paatsjoki-Saami pò,uta_s,
Notozero-Saami pa:utas "kleinerer Arm eines Flusses" |
? [ostj. (741)
Vach pas&l "Zufluß (lang - drei Tagereisen)",
Fili pas (Pl. past&t) "Zufluß",
Kazym pos&l "Nebenarm eines Flusses (weit abliegend)" |
wog. (WV 76)
Untere Kunda pas&l,
Pelymka pos&l,
Sosya posal "Seitenarm eines Flusses"] ||
?sam. jur. (345)
Ust´e pa:ra:d,
Njalina pa:rat "Unterarm (Ust´e), Oberarm (Ust´e Njalina)",
Obdorsk pa:rod? "Seitenarm eines Flusses".
Finn., lapp. s und sam. t, ð sind Ableitungssuffìxe.
Finn. pudas kann auf Grund seiner geographischen Verbreitung auch eine
Entlehnung aus dem Lapp. sein.
Der inlautende Konsonantismus im Lapp. ist unregelmäßig: N bo,vces
-k'ca- kann auf urlapp. *pukc^ase, Kolt-Saami Paatsjoki-Saami pò:utas
und Notozero-Saami pa:utas auf uгlapp. *puktase zurückgeführt werden.
Das ostjakische und das wogulische Wort können nur dann zu dieser
Zusammenstellung gehören, wenn im Obugrischen eine Metathese
stattgefunden hat und das inlautende s ursprünglich ein Suffixelement war.
Das samojedische jurakische Wort hat früher wahrscheinlich "Unterarm,
Oberarm" bedeutet, so daß diese Zugehörigkeit ebenfalls fraglich ist.'
If this gloss has Uralic distribution, what is it doing in NWGermany
and the Netherlands? This is very weird.
Torsten
===========
It's not far from being a Saami substratic word.
Ugric and Samoyedic are only dubiously related.
You can add the word Germanic *po:l "pool" to the list.
One more p- word attested in Saami.
The change l > dh in Saami is regular
Cf. *selika > sedhga
A.