Re: Scandinavia and the Germanic tribes such as Goths, Vandals, Angl

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Erik Smit" <cuergomamotorist@...> wrote:

>
> With interests I read messages about the Scandinavian origin of the
> Germanic tribes such a Goths, Vandals. But who did read
> "Skandinavien und die Gothen" written by Rolf Hachmann und
> "Germanische Studien" written by Juergen Udolph?

Not those two books but other stuff by them.

> Especially Udolph has serious objections against a Scandinavian
> origin of the Germanic tribes. He wrote that the oldest place- and
> rives of the Germanic can be found in Central Germany, the region
> Hannover- Magdeburg and Westfahlen (with east of the Netherlands).
> Scandinavia has more recently formed names.

Udolph is very concerned with
1) disqualifying the Scandinavians as Ur-germanen, and
2) reclaiming Kuhn's NWB area for Germany.
I think he is right on 1), in the sense that the Germanic languages we
know now have all descended from a language that was spoken somewhere
around Silesia 2000 years which spread by a series of events which
started with the campaign towards the south of a certain Harjagistaz
(probably just a title) who also invented a writing system for that
language by copying some alphabets of Noricum.
On 2) Udolph is in serious trouble since none of the river names of
that area have been influenced by Grimm.

> And a Scandinavian origin of the Goths and Vandals is a disputed
> matter. For example Wibold Mazczak wrote that the Goths came from
> the south of the ancient DDR, went to Bavaria and Austria and
> arrived in the Ukraine via Hungary. The Gudones mentioned by
> Tacitus were the Baltic tribe of Galindoi.

I think 'Goth' is a pre-Germanic word which is identical to the word
'Jute' and that it designated the various pre-Germanic peoples. The
emigration to the southern Baltic shores was made by disgruntled
natives opposing the new regime in Scandinavia, but since their
leaders were literate in the new language of their oppressors they
ended up speaking a dialect of that.

> And what about the origin of the Angli and Saxones? Did the Angli
> come from the Angerland in Sweden and were the Saxons Scandinavians
> too?

According to the Thuringian Chronicle, the Saxons were newcomers from
the east to (Lower) Saxony in the first century CE.

> And who do live in Jutland and north Germany before the
> arrival of the Germanics?

If Proto-Germanic from Silesia is a language of Jastorf people in
Silesia, the languages of Jastorf were Para-Germanic. If it came from
the east, they were not closely related to Germanic. The one word we
have in Cimbric in Morimarusa "dead sea" of the Skagerrak. That
doesn't look Germanic. Cf. Lat. mortu-, Venetic murtuv-, ChSl. mrUtvU,
Celtic marwo-.


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