Re: Suffix -ock

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Arnaud Fournet" <fournet.arnaud@...>
wrote:

>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...>
> To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 1:14 PM
> Subject: [tied] Re: Suffix -ock
>
>
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "afyangh" <fournet.arnaud@>
> >>wrote:
> >>
> >> Maybe this has already been dealt with before,
> >> but I have not been able to find a reference in the archives.
> >>
> >> What is to be thought about the suffix -ock, that appears in
> >> hill-ock, bull-ock, etc ?
> >>
> >> Substrate, which substrate, possibly Indo-European or not ?
> >
> > The suffix *-Vk in Germanic Kuhn ascribes to NWBlock. Try
> > 'paddock' in the archives.
> >
> > The interesting question is whether English picked that and other
> > NWB suffixes and glosses up already on the continent, or in
> > England. The latter would mean that the Angles and Saxons also
> > encountered a non-Celtic language on the island. I find them also
> > in various Insular Celtic languages, Chris and Brian vehemently
> > dispute this and prefer instead that they are borrowed directly
> > from English (but some occur in Breton too).
> >
> > BTW, George claimed recently that the Belgae invaded Belgium with
> > the Germani from the east. BTW, see
> > Files > Maps from Udolph > 01 bholgh.jpg
> > Food for thought. It would make sense of Tacitus' claim that the
> > Aestii's language was similar to that in Britain (which T. in
> > Agricola relates to Belgic).

> Thank you, Torsten,
> I was expecting you would be one of the first to react to my
> request.

I was expecting you come asking sooner or later, you French
crypto-Belg ;-)

> I'm looking at the nord-saami "substrate" of A. Aikio.
> As usual, things get more complicated when everything is analyzed
> in detail.
> Apart from the desperate cases, which resist any kind of comparison,
> Baltic does not account for everything, even though it's a good
> track.

Forget Baltic. Baltic-speakers were latecomers to the Baltic. At the
coast they replaced the Veneti and the Aestii, whichever languages
they spoke.

> At least three words have -ock > -ag as a suffix.
> It does not seem to be part of Saami standard morphological devices.

?? Which ones?

> As NWB expansion and real nature (language or family, IE or not)
> I'm afraid your NWB chéri has to be expanded into Scandinavia.

You can get off your Feldherrenhügel now.
I would have nothing against NWB being in Scandinavia, and I've looked
into it myself using that other criterion, initial p-. There is some
overlap with p- words in West Germanic, but not much, especially in
Jysk, which should be least affected by the Germanic invasion, cf the
-leben names of the invaders
Files > Maps from Udolph > 47 -leben and -lev.jpg
compare West Germanic p-words
http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/KuhnText/list.html
with Jysk p-words
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/30336

> A very intriguing word is north saami bov-ttäs^ = puffin.
> pov / puff-
> A north scandinavian word = a pre-celtic word of Cornwall ?
> No conclusion, just more food for thought.

Be careful Chris and Brian don't hear you talking like that, or they
will have you wash your mouth out with soap.

> And there is the word for peat
> bal-sa = pedel = peta
>
> North saami is very important in that discussion because these
> words cannot have carried by Germanic languages.
> North Saami pre-dates Germanic.
> They must have been borrowed where they are observed from some
> pre-Germanic source.

Genetically there is a connection between Saami and Basques, says
Oppenheimer. Maybe that's where to look.


Torsten