Re: Marduk = Marut = Marutash ?

On 2008-10-09 15:52, kishore patnaik wrote:

> But it is second sentence we have to think about - old is a relative
> term - old(er) than what? Certainly, it is older than Zeus

Not even a god can be older than himself. Dyaus = Zeus, etymologically,
as both theonyms reflect the same PIE term, *die:us.

> but there is
> no proof to show that it is older than Varuna.

Of two theonyms, the one with a wider IE distribution is likely to be
older, other things being equal. As the PIE status of *die:us/*diw-
seems secure, he's as old as IE deities get. Very few other names of
gods can aspire to the same status on comparatve grounds;
*h2auso:s/*h2uses- 'Dawn' (Ushas/Eos/Aurora), perhaps. There's no
evidence for a comparable age of Varuna. The only possible external
cognate is Greek Ouranos, but the equation is shaky and many linguists
and philologists reject it.

> Varuna is purely Indic god, being conspicuous by his abence in Iranian
> tradition. Of course, Bruce Lincoln in his book "Priests, Warriors and
> Cattle "(, Los Angeles, 1981), which I have referred earlier in the
> thread tries to equate Varuna wtih Ahur Mazda but that does not really
> gel. It is more like equating Yehovah with Parabrahman because both are
> supreme gods and share some attributes.

See the reservations expressed by Francesco.

> In other words, Varuna was absent at AIT time. but he is certainly pre
> RV, with very few hymns invoking him beiing left in RV . That is to say,
> he must have come into picture between AIT and RV, especially as an
> autochthonus (asuriic) element absorbed by Aryans. If he is an
> autochthonous element, he must have taken a long time to get absorbed
> and some more time again to lose his prominence to Indra.
>
> Does the AIT timeline support this much of growth and decline of Varuna
> as a pure Indic God? it certainly does not - especially when one would
> want to place RV after Mitanni inscriptions,.which talk about Varuna.
>
> Thus, there is only one possibility - there is no AIT.
>
> i am not sure if I am clear but I hope to get more clear if the
> discussion progresses.

If Varuna is strictly Indic (or Indo-Iranian, if those who claim that
there _are_ traces of Varuna in the Iranian world), he must be much
younger than IE gods whose names are attested in several distantly
related branches, whatever wishful interpretation of the Rigvedic
material you favour.

Piotr