Re: Vandals

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> --- On Wed, 8/27/08, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > > They [GK: the Vandals] spoke an East Germanic
> > > > > > > > > language, so they were not LINGUISTICALLY Veneti,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Nope. The only reason their language, of which we
> > > > > > > > know nothing, is classed as East Germanic, is that
> > > > > > > > they lived in the eastern part of the later Germania.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > GK: What is missing in the wikipedia article on the
> > > > > > Vandals is the data from Pliny and Tacitus. According to
> > > > > > the former (NH IV.99) the "Vandili" were a group of
> > > > > > Germanic tribes "quorum pars Burgodiones, Varinnae,
> > > > > > Charini, Gutones". According to the latter (Germania, 2),
> > > > > > the Germani celebrated the "Vandalios" as their own in
> > > > > > "carminibus antiquis", and Tacitus concluded that the
> > > > > > designation (Vandilii/Vandalii) was among the "vera et
> > > > > > antiqua" Germanic "nomina". As we know, Tacitus also made
> > > > > > a clear distinction between Vandals and Venedi.
> > > >
> > > > GK: So that, in the first c. CE, not only were the
> > > > non-Germanic Venedi something different from Vandali (for
> > > > Tacitus no less than Pliny), but the term "Vandali" was
> > > > considered both Germanic and ancient.
> > >
> > > By some.
> > >
> > > GK: By all, if we are to believe Tacitus rather than Torsten.
> >
> > By some. This is what Tacitus says:
> > 'Quidam autem, ut in licentia vetustatis, ... affirmant; eaque
> > vera et antiqua nomina [esse]'
> >
> > "Some, with the freedom of conjecture permitted by antiquity,
> > assert that ..., and that these [Marsi, Gambrivii, Suevi,
> > Vandilii] are genuine old names"
> >
> > GK: All Germanics believe that (a) Marsi, Gambrivii etc.. are
> > genuine old names
>
> I don't know why you keep repeating that.
>
> ****GK: Because I am relying on Tacitus rathen than on Torsten's
> Snorrist ideology.****

No you're not. You're so blinded by Torsten's insubordination that you
can't even read.

> Forget the semicolon before 'eaque vera et antiqua nomina [esse]',
> it is not original, and the phrase itself is an accusative with
> infinitive, which means it is a quoted statement; so that the
> statement that Marsi, Gambrivii, Suevi, Vandilii are genuine old
> names is not a fact, but the opinion of 'quidam', ie. "some".
>
> > and (b) all believe that they are Germanic names.
>
> Nope. Not in Tacitus' text.
>
> ****GK: Precisely in Tacitus' text. He is reporting what Germanics
> are saying about terms both they and he believe to be Germanic.****

> > That is the obvious implication of "licentia vetustatis".

Sigh. If you don't believe my translation of Tacitus is right, here's
what other people say about 'licentia vetustatis':

http://www.fullbooks.com/Germania-and-Agricola2.html
'ut in licentia vetustatis. As in the license of antiquity_, i.e.
since such license is allowed in regard to ancient times.'.

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germani_cisrhenani
'Tacitus, Germania, 2.2. Merk op -want dat vergeet men meestal- dat
Tacitus deze beweringen in de mond legt van "bepaalde mensen" (quidam)
en ze op voorhand schijnt te relativeren met de toevoeging "ut in
licentia vetustatis" (fieri solet) - zoals men (gewoonlijk) wat losser
omspringt met zaken van lang geleden.'
"Note - since mostly people forget that - that Tacitus places these
claims in the mouths of 'certain people' (quidam) and seems to
relativize it a priori with the addition 'ut in licentia vetustatis'
(fieri solet) - as people (usually) deal somewhat loosely with matters
of long ago"

This is a footnote of something which deserves being quoted too:
'Het is onduidelijk of de bevolkingsgroepen die door Caesar als
Germanen werden beschouwd, zichzelf ook zo noemden. De Romeinse
historicus Tacitus suggereert in zijn De origine et situ Germanorum
(98 n.Chr.)4 dat de naam afkomstig is van Caesar zelf en pas later
door de lokale bevolking werd overgenomen: "Sommigen verzekeren [...]
; dat er meer (stamvaders) van deze god voortgekomen en er dus meer
stamnamen zijn: Marsi, Gambrivii, Suebi, Vandilii, en dat dat de
echte, oude namen zijn; dat de benaming "Germanen" trouwens van
recente datum is en er pas sinds kort is bijgekomen, vermits diegenen
die als eersten de Rijn overgestoken zijn en de Galliërs hebben
verdreven en (diegenen die ?) nu Tongeren (heten), toen Germanen
genoemd zijn: en dat beetje bij beetje de naam van de bevolkingsgroep,
niet die van de stam, een dusdanige betekenis kreeg dat ze allemaal,
eerst door de overwinnaar om ontzag in te boezemen, spoedig ook door
zichzelf, met de kunstmatige naam "Germanen" werden genoemd." Tacitus
verwijst in deze passage overduidelijk naar Caesar. Ten tijde van
Tacitus was het gebied van de Eburonen, die door Caesar waren
uitgeroeid, bewoond door de Tongeren (Tungri).'

"It is not clear whether the populations which Caesar consider to be
Germanic also called themselves that. The Roman historian Tacitus
suggests in his De origine et situ Germanorum (98 n.Chr.) [above
footnote] that the name came from Caesar himself and only later was
taken over by the local population: 'Some assure [...] that more
[ancestors] have sprung from this god and that there are thus more
original names: Marsi, Gambrivii, Suebi, Vandilii, and that those are
the genuine old names; that besides the designation 'Germani' is of
recent date and only came about a short time ago, since those who came
first across the Rhine and drove off the Gauls and now (are called)
Tongeren, then were called Germani ...' Tacitus refers in this passage
very clerly to Caesar. In Tacitus' time the territory of the Eburones
who had been exterminated by Caesar was inhabited by the Tongeren
(Tungri)"

> > It is because Marsi etc.. are both old and Germanic that "some"
> > reject the "Mannus as only son of Tuisco" for the "Tuisco had
> > many sons" theory. That is what Tacitus is saying.

I am sure you want him to say that, but he doesn't.

> > Because all accept that Marsi etc. are ancient Germanic names
> > found in the old songs,

Not in Tacitus.

> > some proceed to revise the "Mannus as only son of Tuisco" theory.
> > That is the "licentia" allowed them by the "vetustas" of these
> > terms.


> > We may also surmise that these names were listed in the "Mannus
> > only" view among the descendant tribes. As part of either
> > "proximi Oceano", or "medii", or "ceteri".

Surmise to your heart's content. I can't follow you.

> > So the difference between "some" and "others", according to
> > Tacitus,

According to Tacitus and what you surmised.

> > is merely one of genealogical shifts, and has nothing to do with
> > late inclusions into Germania,or language changes. They were all
> > there in the old songs.****

Surmises George.

> They might be old,
>
> ****GK: As I "keep repeating" after Tacitus and his informants.****

Tacitus doesn't say that.

> but that doesn't make them Germanic.
>
> ****GK: Tacitus and his informants believed them to be so.****

Some did. Quidam.

> Place names etc which do not make sense in the language of those
> who live there are perceived by them as 'old', in contrast to those
> in their own language which are made up of recognizable elements.
>
> ****GK: Like "Tuisco" and "Mannus"? (:=))) ****

Yes. Mannus, with the geminate, can't be native Germanic.

> Cf. the end of Snorri's prologue,
>
> ****GK: Of course. "Mais puisque je vous disais que je n'en etais
> pas,...de Port Royal" (cf. Pascal)

I can't find that quote. What's the context?

> It is obvious to Snorri and everyone else who used their heads at
> his time
>
> ****GK: Yawn.... Still flogging that horse... Hopeless, totally and
> irredemiably.****

Flogging what horse? I think I've used that Snorri quote once before.

> that the Celtic etc district and place names in England are not
> from the language family he saw in the corresponding place names in
> Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany and partly England. Similarly, the
> fact that some Germani in Tacitus' time saw the names of the Marsi,
> Gambrivii, Suevi, Vandilii as genuine old names does not mean that
> they are genuine old Germanic names,
>
> ****GK: Tacitus and the Germans of 98 CE thought they were.

Some of them did. Those of that were as smart as Snorri who could see
that these names were not Germanic.

> Which is all that matters in the context we are discussing.****

Too bad you're wrong then.

> in fact they would probably not
> have seen them as such since they don't have a Germanic etymology.
>
> ****GK: Neither Tacitus nor his informants knew that.

Depends on how smart they were.

> Well, another thing the Germans of Tacitus' time certainly didn't
> know is that their language came to them from the Aesirs of Asgard.
> Their old songs (their only source of ancient history) didn't tell
> them that, nor any more recent recollections [like from the
> mid-first c. BCE(:=))).] Neither Tacitus nor the Germans of his
> time (including both "some" and "others") were Snorrists (:=)))
> tsk..tsk...****

Nothing in the old songs could prepare them for the fact that the
particular dialect used by the elite of Ariovistus' army would spread
to all of Germania and beyond.


Torsten