Re: Vandals

--- On Tue, 8/26/08, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

> > >
> > > > > > > They [GK: the Vandals] spoke an East Germanic language,
> > > > > > > so they were not LINGUISTICALLY Veneti,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Nope. The only reason their language, of which we know
> > > > > > nothing, is classed as East Germanic, is that they lived in
> > > > > > the eastern part of the later Germania.
> > > >
> > > > GK: What is missing in the wikipedia article on the Vandals is
> > > the data from Pliny and Tacitus. According to the former
> > > (NH IV.99) the "Vandili" were a group of Germanic tribes
> > > "quorum pars Burgodiones, Varinnae, Charini, Gutones".
> > > According to the latter (Germania, 2), the Germani celebrated
> > > the "Vandalios" as their own in "carminibus antiquis", and
> > > Tacitus concluded that the designation (Vandilii/Vandalii) was
> > > among the "vera et antiqua" Germanic "nomina". As we know,
> > > Tacitus also made a clear distinction between Vandals and
> > > Venedi.
> >
> > GK: So that, in the first c. CE, not only were the non-Germanic
> Venedi something different from Vandali (for Tacitus no less than
> Pliny), but the term "Vandali" was considered both Germanic and
> ancient.
>
> By some.
>
> GK: By all, if we are to believe Tacitus rather than Torsten.

By some. This is what Tacitus says:
'Quidam autem, ut in licentia vetustatis, ... affirmant; eaque vera et
antiqua nomina [esse]'

"Some, with the freedom of conjecture permitted by antiquity, assert
that ..., and that these [Marsi, Gambrivii, Suevi, Vandilii] are
genuine old names"

****GK: All Germanics believe that (a) Marsi, Gambrivii etc.. are genuine old names and (b) all believe that they are Germanic names. That is the obvious implication of "licentia vetustatis". It is because Marsi etc.. are both old and Germanic that "some" reject the "Mannus as only son of Tuisco" for the "Tuisco had many sons" theory.That is what Tacitus is saying. Because all accept that Marsi etc. are ancient Germanic names found in the old songs, some proceed to revise the "Mannus as only son of Tuisco" theory. That is the "licentia" allowed them by the "vetustas" of these terms. We may also surmise that these names were listed in the "Mannus only" view among the descendant tribes. As part of either "proximi Oceano", or "medii", or "ceteri". So the difference between "some" and "others", according to Tacitus, is merely one of genealogical shifts, and has nothing to do with late inclusions into Germania,or language changes. They were all there in the
old songs.****

> > > That's not quite accurate.
> > >
> > > http://www.sacred- texts.com/ cla/tac/g01000. htm
> > >
> > > 'Celebrant carminibus antiquis (quod unum apud illos memoriae et
> > > annalium genus est) Tuisconem deum terra editum, et filium
> > > Mannum, originem gentis conditoresque. Manno tres filios
> > > assignant, e quorum nominibus proximi Oceano Ingaevones, medii
> > > Hermiones, ceteri Istaevones vocentur. Quidam autem, ut in
> > > licentia vetustatis, plures deo ortos pluresque gentis
> > > appellationes, Marsos, Gambrivios, Suevos, Vandalios,
> > > affirmant; eaque vera et antiqua nomina. Ceterum Germaniae
> > > vocabulum recens et nuper additum; quoniam, qui primi Rhenum
> > > transgressi Gallos expulerint, ac nunc Tungri, tunc Germani
> > > vocati sint: ita nationis nomen, non gentis evaluisse paulatim,
> > > ut omnes primum a victore ob metum, mox a se ipsis invento
> > > nomine Germani vocarentur.'