Re: V-, B-

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > >
> > > [...]
> > >
> > > Orbis Latinus
> > > http://www.columbia.edu/acis/ets/Graesse/orblatv.html
> > > has
> > >
> > > no names in B- for Venezia
> > >
> > > one name in B- for Vienna
> > > Vindobona, Vendobona, Vindomana, Vindomina, Juliobona, Flaviana
> > > castra, Vienna, Vienna Austriae od. Fluviorum, Vienni (Wi.),
> > > Wiena, -nna, Winna, Byenna (Winensis), Wien, Stadt,

Niederösterr.

> > >
> > > no names in B- for Villach
> > > Vaconium, Villas, -lacum, Viccacum (Villacensis),
> > > Villach, Stadt, Österr. (Kärnten)
> > >
> > > and the rest of names of these towns the Slavic and most other
> > > names outside of this 'central Slavic' area are in V-. The

Latin-

> > > speaking part of the Roman empire was much bigger than that.
> > >
> > > So, I'm not convinced it was the influence of Vulgar Latin.
> > > Actually I'm fishing for something Venetic.
>
> While I'm at it: Bratislava vs. Vratislav, Breclav and
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walha
> Bloch, Bol/och, Bol/oz, (Blaise?)
> ...
>
> > Forget whatever I said about *Weneto:s speaking Alteuropäisch. I
> > convinced myself over the course of last week that Alteuropäisch

is

> > a western offshoot of unsatemized Indo-Iranian. This simple
> > assumption explains not only the predominant /a/-vocalism but

also

> > several other problems regarding the morphology, lexicon, and
> > geography of the river-names. Details will follow in a week or
> > two, assuming I can avoid misplacing my references.

Make that a YEAR or two. I thought this would be like reeling in a
walleye, and it grew into Moby Dick. Disentangling European river-
name strata is a monumental enterprise. Hans Krahe, in his
enthusiasm for simply finding and identifying Alteuropäisch river-
names, paid scant attention to the relation between gradation and
suffix, and his successors have done too little to remedy the
situation. River-names referred to Alteuropäisch include Indo-
Iranian, Veneto-Illyrian (your "Venetic"), Celtic, and even Ligurian
names. In my view the ONLY way of resolving the strata is by nit-
picking the suffixo-gradational relation.

> > In this new view, the self-name *Weneto:s 'Beloved Ones' was used
> > by native Western IE-speakers to distinguish themselves from the
> > Eastern invaders. Indeed, the name could have served as a
> > shibboleth, since an Indo-Iranian-speaker posing as a native

would

> > have pronounced *Wenetos as *Wanatas, giving himself away with

his

> > lack of /e/.

I am no longer certain that *Wenetó:s means that. The shibboleth
business is too fanciful. Worse, I was stone-cold sober when I
thought of it. No excuse!

> > The notion that Indo-Iranian-speakers inhabited pre-Celtic

Britain

> > might be jarring to some; hopefully stiff upper lips can be kept.
>
> I don't think a-vocalism alone is enough to characterize

Alteuropäisch

> as Indo-Iranian. On might imagine early IE dialects in Europe not
> having undergone ablauting (*a > e, o, zero), or gone ablauting >
> de-ablauting like Indo-Iranian. Note that the Vandals (with
> non-ablauted /a/) at the mouth of the Oder (cf.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vineta
> ) are connected archaeologically with Vend-syssel (with

ablauted /e/)

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendsyssel and that the Langobardi,

when

> they lived west of the Elbe were called Vinnili (with Germanic
> *-en- > *-in-, from ablauted /e/). From that it seems ablauting was
> dialectal in Alteuropäisch/Venetic.

Who gave the Vandals their name? They spoke an East Germanic
language, so they were not LINGUISTICALLY Veneti, just as the Slavic
Wends of Lusatia were not. The Germans evidently retained a folk-
memory of *Weneto:s between the Oder and the Vistula, just as other
*Weneto:s west of the Elbe were remembered as Vinnili, and in the
place-names noted by Hans Kuhn.

While still mired in river-name analysis, I propose this as a working
hypothesis:

1. Corded Ware = Northwestern IE = Proto-Balto-Slavo-Germanic (with
*/m/, not */bh/, in plural oblique noun cases, an ancient
distinction).

2. Globular Amphora = Proto-Veneto-Illyrian (with intervocalic */kk/
from *k(^)w), isolating PBalt, PSlav, and PGmc from each other.

3. Bell Beaker = Western Indo-Iranian (with */e/ and */o/ merged
into */a/), radiating from the Rhine-Elbe interfluve into the British
Isles, Gaul, Iberia, and marginally beyond. These I-Ir speakers were
few in number, but able to dominate large areas for a time with their
cavalry, like the conquistadores in Latin America.

4. Veneto-Illyrian reflux into Britain (e.g. Derwent, which I do NOT
consider a reformation of I-Ir Drawanti:), Gaul (Alisontia etc.), and
Iberia (Lusitanian being a V-I language; Lus. Iccona = Gaul. Epona).

5. Celtic expansion from NE Iberia / SE Gaul into most of W Europe,
largely obliterating V-I languages there. Caesar said the Belgae
spoke a language different from the Gauls (and this is not mere
dialectal hair-splitting, since he did not distinguish between the
languages of the Helvetii, Haedui, etc., and that of the British).
Unfortunately he left us no Belgic glossary. Celts brought non-IE
*ebur- 'yew' and *wern- 'alder' with them from the south. Veneto-
Illyrian used *eiwo- and *aliso- for these trees.

Anyhow, the big question is whether some dialects of this Western
Veneto-Illyrian merged */o/ into */a/ (as Illyro-Japygian / Messapic
did) or retained all five short vowels (as Lusitanian did). As for
merging */e/ into */a/, to my mind only Indo-Iranian did that among
the groups involved, but the difficulty lies in establishing original
*/e/ in particular river-names, and that is what requires the nit-
picking mentioned above.

DGK