--- In firstname.lastname@example.org
, "stlatos" <stlatos@...> wrote:
> --- In email@example.com, "Francesco Brighenti" <frabrig@>
> > A discussion of the etymology of this term (whose eventual origin,
> > according to A. Lubotsky, "must be sought in the Near East") can be
> > found in M. Witzel's paper "Linguistic Evidence for Cultural
> > Exchange in Prehistoric Western Central Asia" (_Sino-Platonic
> > Papers_ 129, Dec. 2003):
> > << **pard-/pandh- "spotted animal, panther": Ved. pr.da:ku- "snake"
> > original C. Asia word seems to have had the dialect variants **pard-
> > /pand-. >>
> Obviously there were no variants, only one language (at least) with
> metathesis (borrowed into G panthe:r, Skt pun.d.ari:ka-).
> Reconstructing one syllable of a supposed borrowing instead of a
> complete PIE word makes no sense. *pr,zdn,ku+ accounts for all the
> Indo-Iranian forms.
Also, in "Aryan and non-Aryan Names in Vedic India" at
he packs a large number of insupportable statements into one long
In passing it should be mentioned that there are a number of words
common to IA
and OIr which are not easily etymologizable25 and must go back to a W.
substrate that affected Proto-Indo-Aryan or Common IIr26 (in the
26 Common IIr words of this type and early loans include: (1) i akå, i
ikå 'brick' : Avest. itiia, zəmōituua 'clay
brick'; OP. iti, MP., NP. xit; > Toch. iścem 'clay'? (2) kapota
'pigeon' : O.P. kapauta 'blue'; Khot. kavūta 'blue',
MP. kabōd 'grey-blue', kabōtar 'pigeon'; (3) kadru 'red-brown', Kadrū
'a snake deity' : Avest. kadruua.aspa 'with
brown horses'; (4) li ga 'mark, penis' : Avest. haptō-iri ga 'the
seven marks' = the seven stars of the Great
Bear/Wain (ursa maior) :: Ved. k å 'the bears' RV, ŚB > sapta r aya
is'; (5) kubja, kubhra 'crooked'
a 'defective' CDIAL 3260, 3290 ~ Iran: NP. kund Bal. kunt; perhaps
also (6) pi
a 'lump' Khotan. pi
Arm. pind 'compact, firm' < Iran. (EWA II, 128); perhaps also (7) kha
ga 'rhinoceros' MS+, EWA 443, cf. N.P.
karka-dån, Arab. karkaddan, Aelianus kartázōnos (*kargazōnos) 'Indian
rhinoceros', all from a pre-Aryan
source? However, cf. Kuiper (as Munda) 1948: 136 sqq.
Other common IIr words are very old loans from an unknown Central
Asian substrate: (1) si ha 'lion'
: Khvar. sarγ, Parth. arg, Khot. sarau; O.Chin. *suån- ei > Jpn.
shi-(shi), Tib. se -ge; cf. also Armen. inc, inj
'leopard', Toch. śiśäk, śecake 'lion' which all(?) stem from **sengha?
(Henning: *s1e gha); (2) p dåku 'snake' RV,
p dakū AV, p dåkhu BŚS (EWA II 163), with Munda prefix pər?; cf. s
dåku 'lizard' lex., S dåku/gu MS (with Munda
prefix s -+ dak' 'water'?), S dara 'snake', etc., KEWA s.v. s dåku,
NIA: W.Panj. par å, Khowar purdùm <
*p dhūma? KEWA II 335, CDIAL 8362, Bur. (Yasin) phúrdum :: Iran. NP.
palang 'leopard' all < **pard 'wild
animal?', > Gr. párdalis, párdos, léo-pardos 'leopard'; **parθ > Gr.
pánthẽr, Skt. pu
arīka KEWA II 301; (3) śa a
'hemp, cannabis' : MP. an 'hemp', Khot. ka ha, Osset. goen, goenoe,
Gr, kánnabis, Russ. Church Sl. konoplja;
This substrate has also influenced several of the surrounding language
There also is some evidence of the existence of the third branch of
IIr, Nuristani or
Kafiri (K. Hoffmann 1975-1992),28 apparently in the present habitat of
the Kafirs in N.E.
Afghanistan and in Chitral in Pakistan.
Among the northwestern peculiarities there is also the strange
k/ś, which does not reflect the old Eastern IE pattern (k' > /ś) but
is limited to non-IA
words, such as karko a/śarko a (cf. Kuiper 1991, 71, 44).29
Apparently, in the NW area, the
pronunciation of k was close to that of palatal sibilant ś, thus
either k' or ky.30 This is not a
case of secondary palatalization (as it is found not only before i but
even before -a-). This
Germ. Hanf < *kanap-; nothe that the substrate which delivered the
Ved. and M.P. words must have had the same
palatal quality of *k which lead to a Vedic realization k/ś, was
noted, above, in Karkō a/Śarko a; (4) sa arpa
'mustard' Br+ > MIA, NIA såsapa 'mustard seed', Khot. śśaśvåna, Parth.
yf-d'n, Sodg. ywp-δn, MP. span-dån,
NP. sipan-dån 'mustard seed'; Gr. sínapi; < pre-Iran. *sinapa <
**sinsap (Henning s1ens2ap); - also: Malay sawi,
səsawi, or Austro-As. *sapi, sV(r)-sapi; further cf. EWA 712, 727: śi
śápå RV+ 'Dalbergia sissoo' NP. īam,
Pashto əwa < *śī ampå, CDIAL 12424), Elam. e-i-á-ba-ut = /eap/;
(5) madhu 'sweet, honey, mead', EWA II
302, KEWA II 570: Avest. maδu, Sogdh. mδw 'wine', Khot. mau 'wine',
(cf. Bur. mel 'wine, from grapes'); Osset.
digor mud 'honey', N.P. mai 'wine'; Gr. méthu 'wine', OIr. mid, OHG
metu, Lith. medùs, OChSl. medu, Toch B mit
'honey'; further: Uralic *mese, mete; Finn. mete, Hung. méz 'honey',
Chin. mi < *miet, Sino-Kor. mil, Jpn. mitsu <
*mit(u); Iran. *maδu > Turk., Mong. bal 'honey'; Arab. mådī?; > Toch B
mot 'intoxicating drink'; ~ (extra-)IE
**melit: Gr. méli, Hitt. milit; cf. also, still further afield, in
Polynesia: Samoan meli, Hawaiian mele, meli; mele,
melemele 'yellow', Maori miere; Tongan melie 'sweetness, sweet,
delicious', Rarotongan meli 'honey', Mangareva
From W.Asia, however, stem: (1) godhūma 'wheat'; Nur. gūm; Hi.
gohũ/gehũ/gahũ :: Avest. ga tuma, MP,
NP gandum, Pashto γanəm < *gandūma?, Khot. ganama < *gamdama, Shughni
indam; cf. Burush. gur, Pl. guri ,
gure ; ultimately, from Near Eastern languages: Semit. * n , Hitt.
kant (EWA 499); however, Brahui xolum, with
Tel. gō i is the Drav. re-interpretation of the word, just as in Ved.
go-dhūma 'cow smoke' (cf. DED 2226 Konda etc.
goyi 'smoke'). -- cf. also the overlap with Dravidian: gardabha
'donkey', EWA 473 :: Toch B kercapo :: DED *garda
> Tamil ka utai, etc. and note that Southworth 1979: 203, 228 sq.,
1990: 222-3, 1995 reconstructs other early
contacts between Dravidian and IA outside the subcontinent, including
*tanu 'self'. - Finally, note Altaic
connections, (n. 27, 34) and some with S.E and E. Asia, n. 48.
By writing "purdùm" it's hard to see how he couldn't know it's the
tone that caused length and not the other way around.
Saying *sengYhos was borrowed instead of < *segYh+no+ 'seizer,
grasper, holder' is even worse, but the strangest is madhu. How could
it possibly be seen as non-IE?
Other things are also wrong, and he doesn't even consider an IE
source like *kwapnos > *kabnas > *kanab or similar.