Re: V-, B-

From: tgpedersen
Message: 59434
Date: 2008-06-30

> > Vesontio, Vesuntio, Visontio, Bizantia, Bisontium,
> > Bisunzium, Besantio, Vesonticorum, Vesontiensium od.
> > Crisopolinorum civitas, Besantio,
> > Besançon, Stadt, Frankr. (Doubs)
>
> D&R: from the pre-IE *ves- 'mountain' (cf. mounts <Viso> and
> <Vésuve>) and the pre-Celt. suffix <-unt-> followed by the
> suffix <-ionem>, attracted to Low Latin <bison, bisontis>,
> whence the arms of the city. K.L. Jackson, LHEB 89 n. 2:
>

Which presumably is a bison, also known as wisent. Hm.

On the etymology of bison(t-)/wisent, Pokorny (at
http://www.geocities.com/iliria6/etymology6
) says
'Root / lemma: weis-3 meaning: to flow; poison, *weasel

Material:
Old Indic ve:s.ati "melts, dissolves",
vis.á- n. "poison", adj. "poisonous",
vis.- (nom. vit.) and vis.t.ha: "excrement, ordure",
also "animal semen",
visrá- "musty smelling";
Avestan viš-, viša- "poison",
vae:šah- "mould, dank, rot, decay, decomposition";
Armenian ge:š "carrion, cadaver";

Gr. iós "poison" =
Latin vi:rus "venom (sg.)/poisonous secretion of
snakes/creatures/plants; acrid element" =
Middle Irish fi: "poison";
Latin ve:na f. "vein" from *weisna:;
Welsh gwyar "blood" (*weisaro-);
in addition Celtic river name
Welsh Gwy (*Weisa:),
English Wear (abrit. *Wisuria:),
gall. Visera > French Vesère, Visuvia > French la Vezouse etc.;
Old Germanic river name Wisura [Weser]",
Latin Visurgis ds.:
compare Russian river names
Vechra (for Soz^),
vowel gradation Víchera (for Kama);
here the river name Weichsel
(from Old Prussian *Vi:ksla:, older *Vi:skla:,
from Pre-Baltic *Vi:stla: from *weis-tla:),
Latin Vistula (from Germanic *Wi:stlo: in Old English Wi:stlawudu, but
Old English Wi:sle from Slavic Visla);

Note:
the rhotacism n- > r- in *wisna:;
Welsh gwyar "blood" (*weisaro-):
Celtic river name
Welsh Gwy (*Weisa:),
English Wear (OBrit. *Wisuria:),
Gall. Visera > French Vesère : Illyrian Illuria "Illyria".

Old Icelandic veisa f. "swamp, marsh",
Old English Old Frisian wa:se, English ooze "slime, mud"; perhaps
Old High German weisunt, weisont, weisant
"windpipe / trachea / breathing tubes /passages; artery; ureter/other
ducts" (the flowing);
wherefore Old English wa:send, English weasano: "windpipe, gullet",
further
Old High German wisunt, -ant,
Middle High German wisent,
Old Icelandic visundr (*wis-onto-) "bison ox"
(from Germanic derives Latin biso:n, -ontis and gr. biso:n);

in addition
Old Prussian wis-sambrs "aurochs, extinct European wild ox",
Old Church Slavic zo,brI ds.;
named after the smell, as well as
Modern Icelandic visla,
Old High German wisula,
Old English weosule, wesle,
English weasel "weasel" and Iltis "polecat" (above S. 304),
the Germanic *wis(j)o: "polecat" assumes;
compare Vulgar Latin vissio: "breaking wind, fart, fetidness";
Marstrander compares (Ériu 5, 207) still Ir. fíal "ferret" (*wiselo-);

Maybe alb. (*vikse) vithe "buttock" common alb. -k > -th.

perhaps moreover
PIE *wi:ks- "mistletoe and other glue-delivering tree" in
Gr. iksos m. "mistletoe, birdlime",
Latin viscum "mistletoe; bird-lime (made from mistletoe berries)", Old
High German wichsila,
Middle High German wi:hsel "sour cherry",
Russian etc. vis^nja "cherry" (out of it
Latvian viksna,
Old Prussian wisnaytos "cherry") -
Cherry rubber and mistletoe berry are used as a birdlime;

Maybe alb. vishnja "cherry" a Slavic loanword.

Maybe alb. vishkull "rod, cane" a Germanic loanword similar formation
to alb. vetull "eyebrow from Old Prussian".

English mistletoe,
Italian vischio,
Albanian veshtull,
Catalan vesc; herba del vesc,
Furlan visc,
Latin Viscum album,
Portuguese visgo,
Romagnolo vestc,
Sardinian Campidanesu frisa

acc. to Specht (Idg. Dekl. 206) in addition further
Lithuanian viksvà "sedge" from *vis-k-va:
besides vizgà "grass",
Old Prussian wissene "Porsch".

References: WP. I 234 f., WH. II 746, 800, 801 f., Vasmer 1, 208.

Page 1134 '

My two bits: Da. vissen "withered"

I am of course happy to see my old friend *was- "swampy ground" here
http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/ws.html

So, is the bison(t)/wisent word Venetic?

Cf.
http://tinyurl.com/6c5msj
'Proto-Baltic: *wisamb-a-, *wisamb-r-a- m.; *s(t)umbr-a- m.
Meaning: aurochs
Lithuanian: stum´bra-s "Wisent, Bison, Büffel, Auerochse"
Lettish: stumbrs, stumbris, sumbrs, su~brs 'Auerochse'
Old Prussian: wissambrs, wissambris 'Auerochs'
'
http://tinyurl.com/3wy3e7
'Proto-IE: *wisAn-
Meaning: aurochs, auroch's horn
Old Indian: vis.a:n.a- n., vis.a:n.a: f. "horn, tusk; tip, point"
Slavic: *zo:NbrU, *zo:NbrI, *jIzo:NbrI
Baltic: *wisamb-a-, *wisamb-r-a- m.; *s(t)umbr-a- m.
Germanic: *wísun-d-a- m.
...
Comments: Slav jI- < *vI-, like *vi:vIlga:/*ji:vIlga:, etc.
'

The whole complex is so screwy (is that thing after *weis- a complex
suffix or several, or just a another word?) that the only thing I can
compare it to is the "sand" word
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/39637
(and don't forget Slavic pesok etc "sand",
plus perhaps Latin fari:na, the -rr- (of far, farris, of the standard
derivation) > -r- is otherwise unexplained)
and that I already suspect of being Venetic.

Some have complained about this derivation that the bison is not
particularly smelly; the ancients might have thought differently:

http://www.drweevil.org/?m=20060305



Torsten