From: tgpedersen
Message: 59368
Date: 2008-06-21
>It's neccesary for other reasons. among them archaeological.
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Anders R. Joergensen"
> > <ollga_loudec@> wrote:
> >
> > > However, I don't see any reason why the Brit. verbal stem *pex-
> > > should no have been borrowed directly from Latin.
> > >
> > > A nice little Latin derivational system was borrowed by British
> > > Celtic, namely *pex- 'to sin' (pecca:re), *pexOd 'a sin'
> > > (pecca:tu-), *pexOdr, *pexadyr a sinner' (pecca:tor,
> > > pecca(:)to:rem). While the reflexes of the agent noun suffix
> > > *-Odr, *-adyr became somewhat productive in W, this did not
> > > happen in SWBrit., which is why a back-formation (noun -> verb)
> > > seems unlikely.
> >
> >
> > Erh, you see no reason why it shouldn't have happened, and it
> > happened? I'm confused. Was the verb stem borrowed as such or not?
>
> Yes, that seems by far the most straightforward solution.
>
> > Do you have other examples of Latin verb stems being borrowed by
> > Insular Celtic?
>
> Sure, how about Brit. *pask- 'to feed, to pasture' (Latin present
> stem pasc-) or *krIsk- 'to grow' (Latin present stem cre:sc-, with
> secondary shortening in British Celtic). More could probably be
> found.
>
> >
> > Gol/a,b has
> > Lat. pa:sto:r // OCS pastyrI "shepherd"
> > *rod-tro- (Latin rostrum) // PSlav. rydlo "beak"
> > Apparently Slavic loans these words from a language similar to
> > Latin, but with /o:/ > /u:/. It would seem the Welsh /y/ in the
> > agens suffix -adyr came that way too?
> >
>
> What I wrote above as *y (in lack of barred "u" on the keyboard)
> gives W <u> (high central rounded) and Cornish and Breton <u> (high
> front rounded). It is the outcome of PCelt. *ou, *eu and *oi,
> probably through the stages /o:/ > /u:/ > /y/. Latin /u:/ and /o:/
> are represented by this vowel in loans into British Celtic (with a
> few exceptions). I don't quite see why an extra language is
> necessary.