Re: Scientist's etymology vs. scientific etymology

From: tgpedersen
Message: 59258
Date: 2008-06-14

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > [...]
> > > >
> > > > Why not dump Sabine altogether then?
> > >
> > > Some of the other Latin words in -eus are likely to be from
> > > Sabine. The alternation between <clipeus> and <clupeus> suggests
> > > that the root-vowel in the source language had raised [u] to
> > > [ü], and this was being unrounded to [i]. As we know, this
> > > happened independently with Greek upsilon, and more importantly,
> > > we find it in Umbrian <pir> 'fire' and other words.
>
> My bad. Umbrian only unrounds inherited _long_ [u:] this way. The
> nom./acc. sg. <pir> is from *pu:r.
>
> > That reminded me of something.
> > Hans Kuhn: Das letzte Indogermanisch, p. 19
> > 'In Latin /u/ in the position between /l/ and /b/ or /p/ has
> > partly become /i/ (libet beside lubet, clipeus beside clupeus
> > etc). This mix is documented early and probably arrived with
> > the language in Italy. This since we have en exact correspondence
> > in our river name Lippe, which the Romans only knew as Lupia (et
> > sim.). But no Germanic nor German sound law can explain how that
> > became Lippe (first documented as Lippa in the Geographer of
> > Ravenna). But also the city of Lecce in Calabria - supposedly
> > occupied by Illyrians - was called Lupiae or Lupia in antiquity,
> > but seems early also to have been written Lipia vel sim., such as
> > the present form presupposes. It is thus an old Western IE sound
> > transition, and we can this time establish it in the
> > Nordwestblock. Perhaps the river was already then in its lower
> > course, where the Romans became acquainted with it, Lupia, above
> > the Borken boundary, which crosses it, however Lipia.'
>
> He raises several important points, but I would be reluctant to
> bundle these geographically disparate vowel-shifts together. While
> clupeus/clipeus may be an ambiguous example, lunter/linter 'boat,
> skiff' is not, since there is no labial following the vowel.
>
Allow me to confound you further:
Gol/a,b 'The Origins of the Slavs' quotes Lehr-Spl/awin´ski for a long
list of supposed Ventic river names, among which is Drwe,ta (with the
family of French Durance (< Durantia) and a whole family of Derwent's
in Britain, and the following:
'11.) L/upia: a right tributary of the Bzura, a left tributary of the
Vistula (near Skierniewice). It has numerous derivatives:
L/upica, a historical hydronym (1310 A.D.) denoting a river on the
boundary between Silesia and Wielkopolska;
L/upka, a left tributary of the Osl/awa, a right tributary of the
Upper San;
L/upie,z.a (Germ. Lupenze), a right tributary of the Odra near Sulechów;
L/upawa (Germ. Lupow), a tributary of the Baltic Sea in Pomorania
(flows from Lake L/upawsko); and
Luppenow (repolonized Lupniów?), a village NE of Sl/upsk in Pomorania.
It has a correspondence in
L/upa // L/upia (according to Lehr-Spl/awin´ski, loc. cit., 71), a
left tributary of the Irpen´, a right tributary of the Middle Dniepr
(Lupa, according to Trubac^ev, 1968: 256), and in
Lup(p)a, a right tributary of the, Mereja, a left tributary of the
Upper Dniepr (see Toporov and Trubačev, 1962: 194). There are also
Baltic correspondences.'

And check the map 12lup.jpg in
the folder 'Placenames untouched by Grimm, maps 08-12, 16' in
the folder 'Maps from Udolph ' in
the Files section.



> > This after a paragraph, where he documents (*kW >) k/p confusion
> > in German/Low German, quote:
> > 'kriechen and LG krupen,
> > streichen and streifen,
> > tauchen and taufen,
> > nd. Siek und Siepen "wet depression in terrain',
> > engl. shrink and HG schrumpfen,
> > Strunk and Strumpf,
> > Goth. *auhns/OSw. ugn and Germ. Ofen,
> > ON ylgr "female Wolf" and ulfr "Wolf"
> > Germ. leihen and bleiben
> > and more'
>
> Also 'four', 'five', 'leave' (with its cpds. 'eleven'
> and 'twelve'), 'sieve', and 'soap' have labials.
>
> > and he compares Gmc. *kak-/ko:k- "cake" with *kwekw- <- *pekw-.
>
> That is probably wrong; I am more inclined to assign 'cake' to PIE
> *geH2g-, Western IE *ga:g-, *gag- 'round object'(?).
>
> The name of the great oak-forest, the Hercynia Silva, can hardly
> come from anything but PIE *perkwu-, in an Old Celtic form whose
> evanescent /p/ was still audible as [h] to the Greek geographers.
> But this cannot be a native Celtic form since Celtic, like Italic,
> assimilated *p...kw... to *kw...kw..., as shown by words for 'five'
> and 'cook'. It must have been borrowed from a language which did
> not make this assimilation, retained /p/, and probably reduced *kw
> to /k/.

Archaeologically, 'para-Celtic'.


> We are a long way from the Baltic, and I prefer to see NWB
> as the source language.

Since I suspect both Baltic Venetic and NWB are both of the Venetic
family, I don't feel strongly either way.


> Also, Kuhn himself in "Anlautend P-", p. 5, cites *pink- 'kleiner
> Finger', in ndl. und nd. (ostfries.) <pink> (borrowed into Eng. as
> <pinky>) as NWB from PIE *penkwe 'five' (actually an ordinal would
> be more plausible as 'fifth (finger)'). This is one of his more
> convincing NWB lexemes, and also shows no assimilation of *p to
> following *kw.
>
> > In all, if he's right, the Sabellian tribes could have brought
> > their version of ca:seus all the way from Central Europe. Which
> > means we could argue from West Venetic/NWBlock/West Urnfield.
>
> And perhaps the urns were really recycled containers in which the
> Salted Cheese Folk had stored and transported their product. Let's
> not get too far ahead of ourselves.

Or squeezed cheese or quartered cheese. Actually their ashes ended up
in them.

...

> > > > If the ancestor ultimately is PIE *kwat-, it's difficult to
> > > > argue that it had -s- at the time of the Latin rhotacization.
> > > > It might have been
> > > > *kwat-jo- > *kwatso- > *katso- > *ka:syo- cf. caussa > causa
> > > > without rhotacization. Note also unusual metathesis -tz- <>
> > > > -zt- in Basque.
> >
> > Cf. Da. kvæste, Du. kwetsen "injure"
>
> ... and Greek <mástos>, <mázos> 'nipple, breast'. This is not all
> that unusual.

In Greek it's been attributed to a substrate. If that's a precondition
for a similar instability we have a case here.

See also ME <claspen>, <clapsen> 'to clasp', OE
> <a:scian>, <a:csian> 'to ask'.
>
> > > You do have a point, in that *ca:sseus would have avoided
> > > rhotacism, with subsequent reduction of the geminate after the
> > > long vowel.
> >
> > Yes, if you want to strictly believe that reduction took place not
> > before Latin. I assumed loss of -t- *-ats- > *-a:s- with
> > compensatory lengthening of the vowel, but of course that's ad
> > hoc, until further.
>
> Latin doesn't have comp. leng. for stops; see e.g. <anas> <
> *anats 'duck', <lapis> < *lapids 'stone, stone seat'. <pe:s> 'foot'
> vs. gen. <pedis> is inherited gradation, not comp. leng.
>
True. Instead I could appeal to alternation *casseus/*ca:seus, seen
elsewhere.


Torsten