Re: beyond langauges

From: jouppe
Message: 58323
Date: 2008-05-03

--- In, Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
> But Catalan *has* contrastive consonant length (l vs. l.l,
> ll vs. tll (or ll-ll as in the PN Bell-lloc), n vs. nn, etc.
> and also in b vs. bb, g vs. gg (the latter variant in the
> sequences bl, gl).
> =======================
> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
> miguelc@...

I'd buy <sela> (was it 'eyebrow'?) versus <> 'cell' as a
pair distinguished by length if no better solution exists. And if
length is otherwise part of the system maybe -r- versus -rr- and -ll-
versus -tll- can be accepted as well. Then we would have a neat
package saying liquids may be geminated, other consonants not.

Then, out of curiosity is it really customary to interpret [påpl#]
as /påbbl#/ 'people' (/å/= halfopen /o/ in lack of IPA character and
# is halfopen central unrounded vowel in lack of the upside down V)?
What would then be the minimal pairs showing contrast both to a
fricative /-bl-/ and to the voiceless /-pl-/. In order to establish
the lengthened /-bbl-/ as something else than a conditioned
allophone you should be able to distinguish it from BOTH, no ho
penses? And -ul- as in <paraula> won't do!
The same goes for -ggl- as in supposed /räggl@/ 'rule'.

As for /-nn-/ versus /-n-/, is this some morphem boundary stuff?
May be something like "que m'en notifiï" versus "que m'ha notifiat"?
It's a bit marginal to the system in that case. Many languages may
display length at morpheme boudaries where it does not otherwise

Fés favor i corregeix-me lliurement, no he après el Català molt
analíticament. Potser que tens raó, que saps l'anàlisi pel cor i per
l'educació. Solament que m'ha sorprès molt entendre que els
consonants exposin quantitat.