Re: That old Odin scenario ...

From: tgpedersen
Message: 58318
Date: 2008-05-03

--- In, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
> --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> >
> > BTW
> >
> >
> >
> > That would make sense if the Nemetes had come all the way from
> > Przeworsk-land with Ariovistus. The question is then: how close
> > would the Slavs have to have been at the time A. left with them
> > for that to be their designation for Germanic?
> >
> >
> > Torsten
> ****GK: I don't think the Nemetes have anything to do
> with the "Nemtsi/Nimtsi" of the later Slavs.

I do. 1 - 1.

> I agree with Kortlandt and Shchukin: it is impossible to
> identify a "Slavic" group as of your mentioned dates <72-58 BCE>.

?? Please explain.

> There is also an interesting recent
> genetic study which locates the "Slavic homeland"
> somewhere in the basin of the Dnipro/Dnepr: cf.
> Some interesting quotes:
> Localisation of the Slavic homeland prior to their
> great expansion in the fifth to sixth centuries is one
> of the key problems of European history in the first
> millennium AD. Although it is assumed that
> prehistorically the original habitat of Slavs was
> Asia, from which they migrated in the third or second
> millennium BC to populate parts of Eastern Europe
> (Encyclopædia Britannica 2006), a debate concerning
> the European homeland of Slavs seems to remain
> unsolved. Because Slavs unequivocally enter the
> records of history as late as the sixth century AD,
> when their expansion in Eastern Europe was already
> advanced, different theories concerning the Slavs'
> geographic origin based on archaeological,
> anthropological and/or linguistic data have been
> formulated. Two such theories have gained the largest
> support among the scientists (Schenker 1995), one
> placing the cradle of Slavs in the watershed of the
> Vistula and Oder rivers (present-day Poland), and the
> other locating it in the watershed of the middle
> Dnieper (present-day Ukraine). Our results indicate
> that using the population-of-origin approach based on
> the AMOVA, as many as nine (P > 0.05) or ten (P >
> 0.01) populations can be traced back to the lands of
> present-day Ukraine, including Eastern-Slavic Russians
> and Belarusians, Western-Slavic Poles and Slovaks, and
> Southern-Slavic Slovenes and Croats. On the other
> hand, the Polish population gave insignificant F ST
> values in pairwise comparisons with only one (i.e.
> Ukrainians) or three (i.e. Ukrainians, Slovaks, and
> Lusatians) populations (P > 0.05 or 0.01,
> respectively). Moreover, the Y-STR genetic distance
> between Poles and Belarusians, who are geographic
> neighbours (Table 1), excludes significant gene flow
> between the two populations and localisation of
> Belarusians' ancestors in present-day Poland.
> In conclusion, we have demonstrated that Y-STR
> haplotype distribution divides Slavs into two
> genetically distant groups: one encompassing all
> Western Slavs, Eastern Slavs, Slovenes and Western
> Croats, and the other involving all remaining Southern
> Slavs. Many northern Slavic populations are
> genetically indistinguishable in regard to the
> nine-locus Y-STR haplotype variation, and this
> homogeneity extends from the Alps to the upper Volga,
> and even as far as the Pacific Ocean (eastern Russia),
> regardless of linguistic, cultural and historical
> affiliations of the Slavic ethnicities. The example of
> Slovaks and Belarusians shows that this homogeneity is
> likely to be extended to other Y-chromosomal
> microsatellites as well. Results of the
> interpopulation Y-STR haplotype analysis exclude a
> significant contribution of ancient tribes inhabiting
> present-day Poland to the gene pool of Eastern and
> Southern Slavs, and suggest that the Slavic expansion
> started from present-day Ukraine, thus supporting the
> hypothesis that places the earliest known homeland of
> Slavs in the basin of the middle Dnieper. To our
> knowledge, this is the first report on the use of
> genetic markers in solving the question of the
> localisation of the Slavic homeland.
> ***The observed northern Slavic Y-STR genetic
> homogeneity extends from Slovakia and Ukraine to parts
> of Russia and Belarus, but also involves
> Southern-Slavic populations of Slovenia and western
> Croatia, and is the most probably due to a homogeneous
> genetic substrate inherited from the ancestral Slavic
> population. However, due to the Y-STR proximity of
> linguistically and geographically Southern-Slavic
> Slovenes and western Croats to the northern Slavic
> branch, the observed genetic differentiation cannot
> simply be explained by the separation of both
> Slavic-speaking groups by the non-Slavic Romanians,
> Hungarians, and German-speaking Austrians.
> A similar difference has been previously reported
> between Bulgarians and a few other Slavic populations
> (Roewer et al. 2005), and our results demonstrate that
> other Southern-Slavic populations, namely Macedonians,
> Serbs, Bosnians, and northern Croats are genetically
> distinct from their northern linguistic relatives as
> well.
> ....
> the contribution of the Y chromosomes of peoples who
> settled in the region before the Slavic expansion to
> the genetic heritage of Southern Slavs is the most
> likely explanation for this phenomenon. On the other
> hand, our results indicate no significant genetic
> traces of pre-sixth-century inhabitants of present-day
> Slovenia in the Slovene Y chromosome genetic pool.
> ******

Here's a nice compromise which saves faces for both theories:
Przeworsk and Zarubyntsi meant interpenetration of
(Proto-Proto-)Germanic and (Proto-Proto-)Slavic speaking groups (while
squeezing the Veneti); the Slavs reaching up to the Venetic Nemetes
around Niemcza/Nimptsch (< *nemét-skV), which then become
Germanic-speaking, and the name is transmitted back east.
Some activist joker arrives from the east and gets people (the *Sl/ewi
"the independents", and the Nemetes etc) to join him on a ver sacrum
against the decadent Celts, the Slavic *Xorwté-s choose to stay behind
and look after the farms, just in case; after the debacle in Gaul,
virtually all the adventurists are gone from Przeworsk, only the
resilient Slavs hang on; in the 5th-6th century massive reinforcements
arrive from the Dniepr region.

Voilà: no genetic backdraft from Przeworsk into the Dniepr area, and
the Kiev and (partly, in the south) the C^ernoles cultures get to
colonize the whole present Slavic area.

It's possible to argue for 'nemeton' being of originally Venetic, not
Celtic origin, cf the geographical spread:
and perhaps
(the site of Caesar's Gallic Veneti)

The -et- ethnonym suffix would place the name with the *-iþi names