Re: That old Odin scenario ...

--- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

> > GK: Some archaeologists did think that the
> mixed
> > culture which evolved out of the interplay of
> > Przeworkers, Dacians, and incoming Zarubinians (in
> > Galicia) after 50 CE (called the "Zubretska"
> culture)
> > was Slavic, but Shchukin's analysis has likely
> > eliminated the scenario. He argued very
> persuasively
> > that the "Slavic" settlements allegedly found
> there
> > (originally dated as of the 3rd and 4th century)
> were
> > actually much later, and contained archeological
> > "rubbish" from earlier epochs. Zubretska BTW
> changed
> > into Chernyakhiv in Gothic times...
> > And the Zarubinians of the Pripet did migrate
> > southward. This is proved 100%.The evidence is
> > overwhelming.
> > >
> That would be the Southern Slavs, known as Antes?

****GK: Not possible. The "Antes", first mentioned in
the 6th century, were carriers of the "Penkivka
culture" (one of the offshoots of the Kyivan culture,
itself a product of the "Late Zarubinian +others
'ethnic goulash'). The reason why some thought the
Zubretska culture might have been an early "Slavic"
culture is that many typically "Slavic" dwellings
(familiar from 6th/7th century sites elsewhere) were
discovered there, and dated from objects of the 3rd
and 4th cs. Some archaeologists (e.g. Kozak) then
concluded that the typical "Slavic" dwelling was first
developedin the context of this Zubretska culture, and
thus that the Slavs were a component of the Gothic-led
Chernyakhiv. The criticism of this view was that the
"early objects" did not relate well to the attested
Slavic culture of the classic period of Slavic
emergence. The current solution is that the Slavic
settlements (dwellings)found in the Zubretska area
were built by incomers of the mid-to late 5th c. and
that the earlier objects were stratigraphically mixed
in. It is also argued that the incoming Slavs found
the remnants of a Chernyakhov population there(as they
did elsewhere),and assimilated them. This solution is
now the dominant view.****

>
> > >
> > > > The vacated territory was subsequently
> occupied by Welbarkers(a
> > > > century later). Central "north Bastarnia" was
> nearly
> > > > wiped out by 50 CE and its population
> dispersed
> > > > towards the north and northeast. Some may have
> reached
> > > > Finnic territories,but most just melted into
> the
> > > > "BaltoSlavic area".
> > >
> > > Could they be the Eastern Balts?
> >
> > GK: Shchukin argued that the ethnic "goulash"
> (if
> > I can so call it) was proto-Slavic. There were
> "Balts"
> > or "Baltoslavs", Germanics, Celto-Venetics,
> "Thrakoid"
> > Scythian remnants. Somehow, out of this Slavic
> > emerged.
> > > >
>
> If we accept the concept of 'ethnic goulash' in
> principle (and I
> can't see why we shouldn't) couldn't Western Slavs
> have emegerged by
> demographics in such a goulash in the local sequence
> Zrubetska >
> C^ernyakhov (and be named Wend from the previous
> demographically
> dominant ethnic group)?

****GK: The only variant possible is that remnants of
the Z/Ch were incorporated into the masses moving in
from the north. The Slavic culture of the incipient
historical period could not have developed from either
Zubretska or Chernyakhiv, but only from the "Kyivan
culture". As for the Germanic designation of Slavs as
"Wends",that is explainable in a fashion similar to
the European designation of American natives as
"Indians" (mutatismutandis}. The Slavic reality
substituted for an earlier territorial reality and was
given the same name.****

>
>
> Torsten
>
>
>

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