>Perhaps some people don't get non-etylogical
>adaptations of names. There are quite a few between
>Spanish and English among immigrants --Jesús often
>becomes "Jesse", Joaquín sometimes becomes "Jack," and
>so on, even though the names are not related in any
>etymological sense. Among Italian-Americans, Cesare
>becomes "Chase." There are some odd ones between
>Gaelic and English: Aonghuis > Aeneas, Aodh > Hugh,
>etc. So I can readily understand why a Gyula might
>want to "upgrade" by suggesting it's somehow related
>to Julius in Latin --a way to keep a traditional name
>while claiming it's part of an international or new
>culture.
But in this case, the original poster has difficulties to
get the message:
not only did I point out that various
contemporary chroniclers or of later times (1-2 centuries)
have their reports on those princelings whom in *today's*
Hungarian language are called Gyula -- so that he on his own
be able to look up each given spelling (Constantine Porphyro-
genitus, Kedrenos, Skylitzes, Zonaras & Persian + Arab
chroniclers).
But on my page I copied two chapters from "Anonymus"
royal notary's chronicle ("Gesta Ungarorum"), namely rendering
the Latin spelling used by the author, as copied from the
facsimile (really nice old-fashioned photocopies) of his
manuscript.
In the one chapter both the "old" and "young" Gyulas are
spelled __Gyla__. In the other chapter this name is spelled
__Geula__ (which was a spelling used by other Hung. authors
as well). So, Jul(i)us. Despite the fact that the anonymous
royal notary (and highly probably the chief hierarch of
Hungary's Roman-Catholic Church himself) wrote his narration
in Latin and really had an idea of Julius, since in the first
chapters he mentioned some ancient authors as well as history
heroes, such as emperor Darius and Alexander the Great. (Experts
consider that his account was written to be read by someone
in Italy, perhaps some Vatican official).
Here the excerpts with the spellings Gyla and Geula, used
by the author around the year 1200:
-----------------------------------------
(chapter) 24 De terra ultra siluana
Et dum ibi diutius morarentur, tunc tuhutum pater horca sicut erat uir
astutus dum cepisset audire ab incolis, bonitatem terre ultra siluane,
ubi gelou quidam blacus dominium tenebat. Cepit ad hoc hanelare quod
si posse esset, per gratiam ducis arpad domini sui terram ultra
siluanam sibi et suis posteris acquireret. Quod et sic factum fuit
postea. Nam terram ultra siluanam posteritas tuhutum usque ad tempus
sancti regis stephani habuerunt: et diucius habuissent, si ___minor
gyla___* cum duobus filiis suis biuia et bucna christiani esse,
uoluissent et semper contrarie sancto regni non fecissent, ut in
sequentibus dicetur.
_______
*i.e., Gyula the Younger
-----------------------------------------
(chapter) 27 De morte Gelu
(.......) Et pugnatum est inter eos acriter, sed uicti sunt milites
ducis gelou, et ex eis multi interfecti, plures uero capti. Cum gelou
dux eorum hoc uidisset, tunc pro defensione uite, cum paucis fugam
cepit. Qui cum fugeret, properans ad castrum suum iuxta fluuim zomus
positum, milites tuhutum audacj cursu persequentes, ducem geloum iuxta
fluuium copus interfecerunt. Tunc habitatores terre uidentes mortem
domini sui, sua propria uoluntate dextram dantes, dominum sibi
elegerunt tuhutum patrem horca. Et in loco illo, qui dicitur esculeu
fidem cum iuramentu firmauerunt.
Et a die illo locus ille nuncupatus est esculeu eo quod ibi
iurauerunt. Tuhutum uero genuit horcam, horca genuit __geulam et
zubor__. __Geula__ duas filias, quarum una uocabatur caroldu et altera
saroltu, et sarolt fuit mater sancti regis stephani. Zumbor uero
genuit __minorem geulam__, patrem bue et bucne tempore cuius sanctus
rex stephanus subiugauit sibi terram ultra siluanam. Et ipsum geulam
uinctum in hungariam duxit, et per omnes dies uite sue carceratum
tenuit, eo quod in fide esset uanus, et noluit esse hristianus, et
multa contraria faciebat regi stephano quamuis fuisset ex cognatione
matris sue.
-----------------------------------------
So, the chronicler says Geula was the son of Tuhutum's son Horka.
(Which, BTW, historians say is a mistake, since the chronicler must
have thought Horka was a name, whereas the historian say Horka was
that harka/k(h)arka title (the second one after kündü) within the
Hungarian federation.) The chronicler also says the second (younger)
Geula was (the older) Geula's nephew - namely son of Geula the 1st's
brother Zubur/Zubor/Zumbor (in modern magyarisation Zombor). Geula the
2nd's sons were Bua and Bukna.
King St. Stephen (Vayk), who was first baptized as an Orthodox
Christian, and after a while as a Roman Catholic (a term that I
actually shouldn't use since the Great Schism took place more than
fifty years later), punished Geula the Younger's reluctance to accept
the Roman-Catholic faith (either because Geula was an Orthodox or
because he was a pagan, unlike Geula the Older, who had accepted
Christian faith and baptization about fifty years earlier, according
to chroniclers such as Zonaras, Skylitzes, Kedrenos, and got a bishop
for Alba Iulia, called Hierotheos, send by the patriarch Theoktistos).
Stephen's mother Sharoldu (modern Hung. Sharolta) was Geula the
Older's daughter.
(Unfortunately I don't have the copy of the other important chronicle,
the "gesta" by Kezai Simon (Simon of Keza) (written about 80 years
later than the above one. I mean: I don't have the copy *in Latin*.
The translation in Hungarian is downloadable from the Web. But the
authors also *"translated"* into modern Hungarian all those old names,
which, of course, have different spellings in the original (as in the
case of Anonymus's chronicle from which I cited two chapters above).
Neither do I know the exact spelling of the name in the next
chronicles (also written in Latin), among them the most prominent
being Chronicon pictum vindobonense (the painted chronicle from
Vienna; 14th century).)
George