Djilas (Re: /�vaeg/ > /u-'ya-g&/)

From: tolgs001
Message: 57863
Date: 2008-04-23

>Oash & Maramuresh zones are very conservatives regions of Romania
>being isolated somehow from the rest of the country (see how
>specific is the folklor in that Regions)

These, esp. Oas (which is the Romanian conversion of the Hungarian
name Havas /'hO-vOS/ with the meaning of "Nevada" both in the sense
of "covered with snow" and "mountain" (Muntenia is called Havas-
alf�ld)) were region of heavy exposure to Hungarian influence
and language.

>Also 'we find' River Names in that zone like Iza and Mara and
>Mountains names like Gut^ai (for sure not Hungarians Names...
>even you would like to be :))

What the heck prompts you draw such "intelligent" conclusions
as to imagine you were talking to a philo-Hungarian?

> The right way to search is the source of Hungarian word:
> 1. - that word for sure is not an inherited one.

Seemingly neither inherited by Hungarians. So?

> 2. - is close with Ossetian avg but I see no way to obtain
> an /�/ from an /a/

First of all spend the appropriate time to garner information on
this, and only afterwards, I underscore, only afterwards do dare
return and jot down the unwarranted sentence above, which you
keep repeating although you've got no inkling.

> In addition the Ossetian avg could well be 'a false friend' and
>to have been still apaka, apka or apga around 200-700 AC when the
>Hungarians was (supposed) to be close to them in that zone.

Of course. Didn't I write in a previous message that we (at least
I) don't know wether it is the Ossetian word avg, and not an
earlier one, that evolved as �veg in modern Hungarian? I did.

>3. - there is a Romanian word /uy'ag~a/ when /uy&/ means 'water'

This is a non sequitur. Bottle happen to carry water, indeed.
But that's all. Uiaga does not mean "glass", uiaga means only
bottle (well, made of glass, too). There, where they use the
regional word uiaga, bottle rarely carry water, they mostly carry
brandy.

>in Albanian and /noyan/ means 'imense waters' in Romanian

Not only: it also means precipice; and a great number of things
or of beings or of phenomena. There's no semantic link to noian
either. Or, to a similar degree could be the "kinship" with
toiag "walking stick; staff; club" (even the phonetics fits
better :-)).

>===> seems that you have ignored this.

I didn't ignore them, coz I read your posting. But your assumption
has no substance for various obvious reasons, especially semantic
and phonetic ones. (

>So such a formation is clear like the crystal there is no
>doubt on this

Yeah, sure.

>if apa-ka: is a reasonable formation for Ossetian
>why uya-ga: not to be a reasonable formation for an Albanoid
>areal?

Then be so kind as to explain how on earth has apaka (what a
darned coincidence of a word evoking "fetele de la APACA")
evolved as uiaga without a missing link �veg.

>P>S> George, "my guess" is that the Hungarian Gyula is a loaned from
> Iuliu(s) ... Do you know why we have /yu/ > /gy/ in Hungarian? :)

The most probable explanation for gyula (this is the Hungarian
spelling, but the real one might have been djila ori yula), which
was a high nobility rank (along with k�nd� and karka or harka), is of
Turkic origin, and was "reinforced" in the inception
period of the Hungarian state west of the Carpathians by the
Petchenegs (a.k.a. Patzinaks, Bisseni etc.), a Turkish
people of the Oguz kind. The Hungarian confederation had to leave
Ukraine because of the Petchenegs, but soon the Petchenegs
themselves had to leave because of other Turks who chased them.
Numerous Petchenegs were settled in Hungary, esp. along the
frontiers, becoming the (so to speak) frontier police of Hungary.
But initially, for a while, in the 10th-11th century the Petchenegs
were the facto bosses of Transylvania, and made the capital on
the ruins of Apulum -> B�lgrad = Gyulafehervar = Yula's white
fortress = in Latin Alba Iulia.

At the same time, it was the name of approx. three
Petcheneg chieftains, or princelings, if you prefer. Latinized
"rex Iulus". In the then frontier regions of Hatzeg, Fagaras,
Barsa, and the Szeklerlands as well as along the rivers Tarnave
and in the region of Bistritza-Nasaud there are quite numerous
toponyms, hydronyms and oronyms that bear their vague memory.
Even in Maramures. Often, such linguistic relics are mixed up
with those of Cumans who came in the 2nd half of the 11th century.
After all, another Turkish group (I prefer Turkish instead of
Turkic for obvious reasons, esp. since cybalist is a linguistics
list).

One of the best source pertaining to the East-West movement of
Petchenegs is De administrando imperii by Constantine the 7th
Porphyrogenitus (who wrote the first details referring to them
in 952 or so; he was paid visits by some Hungarian and Alba
Iulia "dukes", the latter getting from Constantinople a Greek
bishop (sent by the Patriarch), namely Hierotheos.

Seemingly, the Transylvanian Petchenegs were of the Yula and
Chor kind (two of their tribes). During the time of Constantine,
Yula lived in Moldavia, on the banks of the river Pruth. Along
the Dnestr, the tribe Irtim/Ertem, and near the Danube the tribe
called Kopon/Kapan/Kaban. AFAIK, in Transylvania there is at least
one toponym containing Tchor (in Hungarian spelling -csor).

George