From: alexandru_mg3
Message: 57848
Date: 2008-04-22
>the
> >Osset. arg "price" - Hung. ár "price", alku "trade";
>
> alku "deal, bargain"
>
> >Osset. avg "glass" - Hung. üveg "glass"; /'ü-vaeg/
> >Osset. ävzist "silver" - Hung. ezüst "silver"; /'aezüSt/
> >Osset. bud "smell" - Hung. büz "stench"; /bü:z/
>
> (The -ü- in büz is written with a double accent égu instead of the
> Umlaut double dot. I won't use the appropriate fonts for the long ü
> and the long ö because they aren't rendered accordingly on
> yahoogroups.com.)
>
> >Osset. käsag "fish" - Hung. keszeg "bream";
> >Osset. marg "poison" - Hung. mereg "poison";
>
> méreg! /'me:-raeg/
>
> >Osset. nymät "felt" - Hung. nemez "felt";
> >Osset. qád "tree" - Hung. gaz "forest";
>
> gaz "weed"! (loanword in Romanian as <goz>, plural <gozuri>, with
> added semantics "rubbish, trash, garbage, litter")other
>
> >Osset. sak'adax "a sleeve of the river " - Hung. szakdék "gorge";
>
> szakadék /'sO-kO-de:k/ (Worth mentioning: the verb szakad,
> meaning "to break, tear (asunder), to stream")
>
> >Osset. säfyn "to clean" - Hung. seper "to sweep";
>
> seper /Saepaer/ with the variant söpör /Söpör/.
> (säfyn rather resembles... soap, Seife, shampoo :-))
>
> >Osset. säv "wide" - Hung. sáv "strip", etc
>
> This one looks strange. The notion "strip" does not fit... "wide".
> But, on the other hand, táv "distance; space", távol "far, remote"
> etc. (cf. távirat "telegram").
>
> >Osset. avg "glass" - Hung. üveg "glass";
> >
> >Also I couldn't find a Hungarian /ü/ loaned from an /a/ of any
> >language ...one,
>
> As long as we don't know the earlier (or intermediate) stages of the
> supposed transformation, no real conclusion is possbile. (I for
> could fancy such a "string": /Ovg/ - /ovg/ - /öveg/ - /üveg/. AftervároS
> all, ö and ü are mere "Umlauts" of e, e:, o, O, u, i.)
>
> > Also Rom. e/accented > ye/ya was ended
>
> The transformation of /v/ in a semivowel or vowel might be a marker
> for the assumed circumstance that in old Hungarian most v's were
> pronounced as /w/ in English and in Old High German. No other reason
> is there for Romanian words related to Hungarian counterparts but
> in which for the Hungarian /v/ there is a vowel or a semivowel in
> the Romanian word.
>
> A similar occurrence is that of the loanword ora$ "city" < Hung.
> and Oradea (city at the Romanian-Hungarian border), in Hungarianad /Od/.
> Várad, a reflex of vár "citadel, Burg" + the toponymic suffix -
>been
> The same Várad gives Oradea, the o-solution, but a diferent Romanian
> name in Banat, the v-solution: the smaller locality Värädia
> /v&-r&-'di-a/. In <ora$> and <Oradea>, there's no /v/, in contrast
> with Värädia. Besides, for Romanian tongues, the initial /w/ is an
> "unnatural" occurrence, so if the old Hungarian pronunciation were
> /w/ then one can assume that the Romanian rendering had to be ora$
> and Oradea, since the pronunciations Uora$ and Uoradea must have
> (as it still is) difficult. BTW, some Romanian emigrated to theSt. /"olstrit"/.
> States call the welfare dough /"olfer"/ and the Wall
>different,
> But there is a thing of utmost importance, there is an obstacle in
> the path of speculations as to whether uiagä might be of a
> "substrate" origin. Namely, the word uiagä /u-'ya-g&/ and itssouthern
> variant iagä (esp. in the county where Oradea is its capital andthe
> surrounding counties, esp. to the South) are in use only regionally.Romania,
> I.e., only in subdialects spoken in north-western regions of
> that were for at least eight centuries under heavy influence by theHungary,
> Hungarian language.
>
> Otherwise, the word is unknown to the rest of the Romanian nation
> (irrespective of dialects and subdialects). Not even within the
> frame of Transylvania and Banat, that until 1919 belonged to
> is uiaga spread throughout the entire Romanian populace - but onlyeg
> in the afore mentioned peripheral regions. Or one is aware of
> this loanword only from literature, mass-media and talking to
> persons coming from the subdialectal area where this loanie is
> in use.
>
> Moreover, virtually only with the meaning "bottle," not with the
> meaning "glass". Whereas in Hungarian, üveg means first of all
> "glass," and the meaning "bottle" is the extended, secondary, one.
>
> (As an ironic coincidence: the region where most of the Yazygs,
> or call them as you wish, Alans or Ossetians, were assimilated
> by Hungarians starting with the 13th century, is the closest, in
> kilometers, as compared with any other region of Romania where
> u/iaga's frequency is nil. About 1/2 or 1/4 an hour by car or
> train away W-NW from Oradea-Carei-Satu Mare. Methinks, a mere
> coincidence.)
>
> >Rom. ujag& > OldHung. uj-wa-ga [uj>ü, w>v, a>e] > Hung. ü-ve-g
>
> Nope!
>
> Üveg is the modern (today's) variant of the word. We don't know how
> it looked earlier, say, 5-8-10 centuries ago. But the /e/ inserted
> after the /v/, followed by that /g/ must have been perceived - at
> least in the modern stages of Hungarian - as the familiar ending -
> /aeg/ (similar to occurrences where, as real or fake suffix, -eg isGeorge , please to stop a second and listen.
> extant in such frequent words as üreg, öreg, meleg, Bereg). (If a
> suffix, because of "vowel harmony", -eg changes to -ag /Og/, e.g.
> szalag.)
>
> So, only üv- is perceived as the root (today), whereas -eg is seen
> as an ending (it's assimilated as sounding as the noun suffix -eg
> and the verbal conjugation ending -eg). Nobody has any idea that
> üv(...)g has to be seen as a compact construction, let alone that
> the "compact construction" was initially made of two words meaning
> "water-like". "Water" in Hungarian is a Uralic word: víz /vi:z/.
>
> George
>