Re: Horse Sense

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Wordingham" <richard@...>
wrote:

>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "fournet.arnaud" <fournet.arnaud@>
> wrote:
>
> > In my opinion,
> > *k^ is regular
> > *k seems to be rare, or related to post-PIE creations or

suffixations.

> > *kw should be the same as *k+*w
> >
> > *k^w is according to my proposal the phonotactic result of any

velar

> (k, g,
> > gh) followed by H1. This contacts created intensive phonemes in
> Eastern and
> > Central PIE, which possibly were pronounced *[k:w] (long stop with
> delayed
> > release) which is treated like k^+w.
>
> I think your proposed sound change is bizarre, but let me first see

if

> I understand it. I think you are saying that:
>
> 1) What are standardly (or at least, frequently) reconstructed as

*kW

> (one phoneme) and *k^w (a sequence of two phonemes) and *kw (a
> sequence of two phonemes) were not distinct.
> 2) Immediately pre-PIE sound changes *kw > *kW and *k^w > *kW may
> therefore be assumed for those who propose a distinction.
> 3) In Eastern and Central PIE, we effectively have:
> k^h1 > k^w
> g^h1 > k^w
> gH^h1 > k^w
>
> I then have the following questions and points.
>
> A) We can then immediately recover traditional *ek^wos as, in your
> understanding, *ek^h1os.
>
> B) How is Western PIE supposed to be different in this respect?
>
> C) Are you truly suggesting that the phonation contrast was lost?

We

> also have, in traditional terms, different reflexes for *gHW (e.g.
> *gHWen 'strike') and *g^Hw (e.g. *g^Hwe:r 'beast').
>
> > I suppose people who disagree will offer examples for counter-

analysis.

>
> The obvious examples would be derivative adjectives in -wo- on stems
> ending in palatals, but at the moment I can't think of any, let

alone

> demonstrate that they have not been reformed since PIE.

Eric P. Hamp, _Homenaje Tovar_ [Madrid 1972], pp. 177-80, regards
Greek <parthénos> 'virgin' as a reflex of PIE *bhr.g^hwéno-, from
*bherg^h- 'to increase, grow' seen in Armenian <barjr> 'high',
Avestan <b@...@zant-> 'grown high', etc. The sense development of
<parthénos> would be through 'exalted', but we might also speculate
whether <Parthénon> originally meant simply 'high(est) place', later
connected with Athena through a sort of theological wordplay. Hamp
believes that both *ghw and *g^hw medially before a front vowel will
produce theta in Greek. This is, of course, a long way from Arnaud's
hypothesis, but we must ask whether all good examples of the contrast
between *ghw and *g^hw are in word-initial position, and if so, why.

Douglas G. Kilday