Re: Hachmann versus Kossack?

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

>
>
> --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh
> > <gknysh@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > GK: Sorry, Torsten,but this won't do. You're
> > > > > retreating into generalities. The question "Why
> > > > > Przeworsk?", rather than, say, Gubin Yastorf, has not
> > > > > been answered. And the relationship between "Berig's
> > > > > people" and "Przeworsk" even less.
> > > >
> > > > Like this:
> > > > After Ariovistus' defeat, some of the upper layer went
> > > > northeast to Jastorf and influenced that culture to become
> > > > Elbe Germani.
> > >
> > > GK: Why would that culture not have been in
> > > process of transformation into Elbe Germanic prior to
> > > and independently of the Ariovistus saga? He was
> > > Suebian before coming to Gaul, left relatives in his
> > > homeland, and had nearly all the Semnones (most likely) on the
> > > banks of the Rhine (led by other leaders) ready to join him
> > > before his defeat.
> >
> > Let's adopt that theory for a moment. We now have a causeless
> > effect, viz. cultural transition from Jastorf to Elbe
> > Germani,
>
> ****GK: It's as "causeless" as the transition from
> Wielbark to Chernyakhiv, or as the emergence of
> Jastorf itself. Have you a "great person" theory for
> cultural change?

No, it's more a 'great migration' or 'great event' kind of thing.
Archaeologically we see a uniform supra-tribal upper layer at that
time, but then, excavations of Napoleonic times would reveal traces of
French officers, not of Napoleon. The fun exercise, I thought, would
be to try to reconcile the written evidence of local traditional
historians, that which is otherwise dismissed as lies spun out of a
feeling of inferiority, a feeling that I see no basis for in the
attitude of those writers, but which rather comes from historical
compromises with those historians from elsewhere who feel that these
peoples, being objectively inferior, should feel so to; the result of
all that being that the peoples of NW Europe are being denied part of
their history, which worried me, knowing that the denial of the
history of an ethnic group is the first step in the elimination of
that ethnic group, which happens to be mine and which is now down to
65-70% of the 15-20 year olds in Copenhagen, and sinking.

> Just because we don't know the exact cause doesn't mean there wasn't
> one (or many).

My words exactly. So I proposed one.

> We see the result, we don't know exactly what brought it about.

Well, we can theorize.

> Some try to fill in the unbearable void with fantastic speculations

(:=)))****

Science is incorrigible.

> > and an effectless cause, viz. the arrival of Harudes in Elbe
> > Germani territory (Ariovistus' 24,000 homeless refugees,
>
> ****GK: How do you know there were that many left?

Well, I don't. But then there were the 100 cantons of Suevi who never
got to cross the Rhine and so were never involved in Ariovistus' defeat.

> Also: we unfortunately have no archaeological remains
> to decide what their cultural identity was in 58 BCE.****

As to whether they were Przeworsk or Elbe Germani, you mean? Those
tribes of Ariovistus' army who had Celtic names, Triboci and Nemetes,
let themselves be settled docilely in Roman Gaul.

> > the presence of Harudes somewhere on the Elbe according to the
> > Monumentum Ancyranum and Vellejus Paterculus
> >
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/55616
> > and later we find them in Jutland or Norway
> > (Hardsyssel, Hordaland).
> > Let's combine the two and make Occam happy.
>
> ****GK: And what is their archaeological equivalent on
> the Elbe, in Jutland, in Norway?****
> >

Good question. I was about to ask you that? Someone pointed out that
the first element of the southern -syssel names of Jutland are
landscape names (eg. Barwithsyssel) but those of the north are names
of peoples (Hardsyssel, Vendsyssel). 'Sysle med' in Danish is 'occupy
with, be busy with' and the 'Sysselmand' on the Faroe Islands is the
representative of the Danish Crown, so those area mat be the reduced
ares of conquered and resettled peoples.

> > >
> > > > Later they went to Denmark and Southern Scandinavia from where
> > > > Berig, as part of that layer, went to the southern coast of
> > > > the Baltic.
> > > > That takes some proving.
> > >
> > > GK: At the moment that's just a verbal assertion
> > > which requires no other disproof than an equally
> > > verbal denial.

Of the 'Is too! - Is not!' category.

> > Usually you're more detailed than that, but I guess Danish
> > archeology is not your strong suit? ;-)
>
> ****GK: No. But I know what questions to ask, what
> constitutes an acceptable answer and what does not
> (:=)))>
> >
> > > Now, shoot away.
> > >
> > > GK: There seems to be no consensus amongst
> > > linguists as to the time frame of the initiation and
> > > spread of the Grimm shift.

I think there is at least an emerging consensus. But we might ask
cybalist if anybody thinks the Grimm shift took place at some other
time than 1st century BCE?

> > > I could mention some pertinent facts about the spread of
> > > "Germanic" partly independent of this, partly related thereto
> > > (in the eyes of some at any rate). Anon.

Yes?

> ****GK: Meanwhile see if you can come up with the
> noticed older evidence of the Swedish population
> expansion into their interior. And what is it that
> expanded earlier into Denmark? Elbe Germanic,or
> something else? (Since Przeworsk clearly won't
> work)>*****

Don't fret. I've ordered the relevant books (I hope) from the library
service.


Torsten