Re: Hachmann versus Kossack?

--- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh
> <gknysh@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > > GK: Sorry, Torsten,but this won't do. You're
> > > > retreating into generalities. The question
> "Why
> > > > Przeworsk?", rather than, say, Gubin Yastorf,
> has not
> > > > been answered. And the relationship between
> "Berig's
> > > > people" and "Przeworsk" even less.
> > >
> > > Like this:
> > > After Ariovistus' defeat, some of the upper
> layer went northeast
> > > to Jastorf and influenced that culture to become
> Elbe Germani.
> >
> > GK: Why would that culture not have been in
> > process of transformation into Elbe Germanic prior
> to
> > and independently of the Ariovistus saga? He was
> > Suebian before coming to Gaul, left relatives in
> his
> > homeland, and had nearly all the Semnones (most
> > likely)on the banks of the Rhine (led by other
> > leaders) ready to join him before his defeat.
>
> Let's adopt that theory for a moment. We now have a
> causeless effect,
> viz. cultural transition from Jastorf to Elbe
> Germani,

****GK: It's as "causeless" as the transition from
Wielbark to Chernyakhiv, or as the emergence of
Jastorf itself. Have you a "great person" theory for
cultural change? Just because we don't know the exact
cause doesn't mean there wasn't one (or many). We see
the result, we don't know exactly what brought it
about. Some try to fill in the unbearable void with
fantastic speculations (:=)))****

and an

> effectless cause, viz. the arrival of Harudes in
> Elbe Germani
> territory (Ariovistus' 24,000 homeless refugees,

****GK: How do you know there were that many left?
Also: we unfortunately have no archaeological remains
to decide what their cultural identity was in 58
BCE.****

the

> presence of
> Harudes somewhere on the Elbe according to the
> Monumentum Ancyranum
> and Vellejus Paterculus
>

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/55616

> and later we find them in Jutland or Norway
> (Hardsyssel, Hordaland).
> Let's combine the two and make Occam happy.

****GK: And what is their archaeological equivalent on
the Elbe, in Jutland, in Norway?****

>
> >
> > > Later they went to Denmark and Southern
> Scandinavia from where
> > > Berig, as part of that layer, went to the
> southern coast of the
> > > Baltic.
> > > That takes some proving.
> >
> > GK: At the moment that's just a verbal
> assertion
> > which requires no other disproof than an equally
> > verbal denial.
>
> Usually you're more detailed than that, but I guess
> Danish archeology
> is not your strong suit? ;-)

****GK: No. But I know what questions to ask, what
constitutes an acceptable answer and what does not
(:=)))>

>
> > Now, shoot away.
> >
> > GK: There seems to be no consensus amongst
> > linguists as to the time frame of the initiation
> and
> > spread of the Grimm shift. I could mention some
> > pertinent facts about the spread of "Germanic"
> partly
> > independent of this, partly related thereto (in
> the
> > eyes of some at any rate). Anon.

****GK: Meanwhile see if you can come up with the
noticed older evidence of the Swedish population
expansion into their interior. And what is it that
expanded earlier into Denmark? Elbe Germanic,or
something else? (Since Przeworsk clearly won't
work)>*****


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com