Re: Mitanni and Matsya

From: Patrick Ryan
Message: 56606
Date: 2008-04-04

----- Original Message -----
From: "david_russell_watson" <liberty@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 6:25 PM
Subject: [tied] Re: Mitanni and Matsya


--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ryan" <proto-language@...>
wrote:
>
> Others have preferred to look at idiocies like 'one who confines'
> for a sea-god!

No, an etymology based upon vr- doesn't amount to 'one
who confines'. Varuna is rather, as is clear from the
Rig Veda, the creator and protector of boundaries, both
those of the universe, as well as those social between
human beings.

***

Varuna existed long before the Rig Veda.

'confine' was your word, I believe, when you were explaining your proposed
etymology.

***

It is most certainly not an "idiocy", and referring to
it as such is very rude to those on this list who were
kind enough to bring it to your attention. It is in
fact a well known and widely accepted etymology despite
your never having heard of it yourself before today.

***

How do you know what I have or have not known before you were "kind enough"
to share your opinion?

Unless the idea was originated by you, I accnot think you would be affected
by a charge of "idiocy".

Did you originate anything in this discussion?

Do you think I have no access to Wiki? I have read, perhaps, dozens of books
on this subject including all of Dumézil.

I knew about and have been thinking about the meaning of Varuna since
Graves. Do you know how long that is?

***

> Or 'one who binds by oath'!

No, he is the god who binds one to his own oath, he is
the guarantor of contracts, alongside Mitra. In Avestan
'mithra-' even specifically means 'contract'.

> These are not functions of a sea-god. When Mitra became associated
> with Varuna,

To what degree is Varuna associated with the sea in the
Rig Veda? His primary and original functions are quite
different, and it is to the latter we must look in order
to understand his name.

***

APAM PITAH

***


> he could well have _added_ the god of oaths function from Mitra,
> who probably is a sun-god (the 'Measurer').

Mitra's function in the Rig Veda, likewise, has little
to do with the sun. He and Varuna are mentioned together
in the Vedas again and again, even employing a special
compound word of their two names, as the joint protectors
of the contract, friendship, all human social bonds in
general.

***

While Mitra has little to do with the sun in the Rig Veda, the Rig Veda is
only one voice in the colloquy.

Mitra was identified with Helios by the Greeks and Romans who probably
understood more about their religion than your 'experts'.

What is Mitra's birthday and what is the significance of that day of the
year?

***

In the Avesta Mithra's role is similar, and many people
regard 'Ahura Mazda' there to be a new name of an older
Iranian counterpart of Varuna.

> "Wide One' is a perfect name for a god of the waters.
>
> In Greek circles, Ouranos' role as god of the waters was mostly
> forgotten as a result of Aphrodite, the female god of the sea,
> taking his place.

We're inquiring into the etymology of 'Varuna-', though,
not 'Ouranos'.

David

***

Well, if Ouranos were cognate, it would put a new complexion on Varuna's
origins.

Now, I will ask again:

please explain the _u_ in Varuna as it relates to your proposed derivation.

My guess is you cannot, and that is why you keep ignoring it and excising
the question in your 'answers'.


Patrick

***