Re: Not "catching the wind " , or, what ARE we discussing?

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

>
> Some clarifications.
> --- "fournet.arnaud" <fournet.arnaud@...>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > > Sez who? Goscinny? Uderzo? You can't change the fact that the
> > > Chatti archaeologically aren't Celtic.
> > > Torsten
> > > ============
> > >
> > > I suppose I may have overlooked
> > > a reference pointing to this.
> > > Please give it again.
> >
> > Once more:
> > "
> > > O. Uenze left the old thought patterns in a different manner. He
> > > observed, that the North Hesse group of the early Latène period
> > > could not with any certainty be called either Celtic or
> > > Germanic.
>
> ****GK: If we are to believe Hachmann, the group
> called "Chatti" in the 1rst c. CE was not yet in North
> Hesse in "early La Tene". They were still north of the
> Lippe r. which was the boundary between "Germanic" in
> any sense (incl NWB) and "neither Celtic or Germanic".
> We don't know what they were called. We don't know
> what the "neither Celtic or Germanic" population south
> of the Lippe was called. Were the northerners already
> "Chatti"? Were the southerners "Chatti" in the 5th c.
> BCE? We don't know.****

Going by their name, the geminated 'Chatti', the northerners would be
linguistically NWBlock speakers.

> > > According to him, they were a tribal group with local
> > > characteristics [O. Uenze, Vorgesch. der hessischen Senke (1953)
> > > 26]. By that he implied that the scheme delivered by historical
> > > linguistics doesn't always correspond to what actually happened,
> > > but didn't yet find the nearest solution.
> > "
> >
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/56384
> >
> > Torsten
> >
> > ==========
> >
> > You have changed :
> >
> > Catti people could not with any certainty be called either Celtic
> > or Germanic.
> >
> > into
> >
> > the Chatti archaeologically aren't Celtic.
> >
> > It seems to me the first statement does not preclude the
> > possibility that Catti are actually Celtic even though we are not
> > sure about it.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/56369
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/56373
Note, in the latter,
'Es sei eine Stammesgruppe lokalen Gepräges19. Damit deutete er an,
daß das von der Sprachwissenschaft gelieferte Schema den wirklichen
Verhältnissen nicht immer entspricht, fand indes noch nicht die hier
nächstliegende Deutung.'

"According to him, they were a tribal group with local characteristics
[O. Uenze, Vorgesch. der hessischen Senke (1953) 26]. By that he
implied that the scheme delivered by historical linguistics doesn't
always correspond to what actually happened, but didn't yet find the
nearest solution."

Meaning that Uenze didn't take the last necessary step, namely
concluding that since he couldn't assign the finds from the Chatti to
either the Celtic or the Germanic culture he should describe them as
belonging to a culture independent of both. Hachmann took that step.

> >
> > My conclusion :
> > Nothing conflicts with the possibility
> > that Catti may be Celtic.
> > It's more unproved, not impossible.
> >
> > Arnaud
> >
> > =============
>
> ****GK: You take your pick: Either the "neither Celtic
> or Germanic" population south of the Lippe in the
> second half of the first millennium BCE was called
> "Chatti", and this appellation was taken over by the
> Germanized population which poured into Hesse at the
> millennium switch, the historical Germanic Chatti, or
> it was called something else (and perhaps considered a
> part of the larger Volcae confederation, even in its
> "phantom" stage,) and the name "Chatti" was brought
> south by the newcomers. The origin of the specific
> term "Chatti" is thus obscure: it could have been
> Celtic, it could have been NWB, it could have been
> something else, since gemination is not something
> particular to any one language. It is, however, as
> certain as these things may be that the historical
> Chatti were not Celts.****
> >

I think that it can be described even more simply: the Chatti were
displaced NWBlock people situated earlier in the area between Bremen,
Osnabrück and Münster, where Kuhn found the many Chatt- and Mat-
toponyms. A glance at a Car Touring Map of the area tells one that it
is littered with geminated toponyms.

Wrt. gemination: Any PIE *-tt- becomes *-ss- in Celtic, Germanic and
Italic; the only way a *-tt- could exist in those languages is by
later composition (or by positing derivation from undetectable
phonemes like Arnaud does). But we have a strong suspicion that the
word 'Chatti' is cognate with Celtic Cassi, Latin Gens Cassia, their
alternative name Kennoi and *-hant- in Twente and Drente. The solution
tat satifies all these demands is that the Chatti were
NWBlock-speaking NWBlock people driven out during Elbe Germanic
expansion into their old areas.


Torsten