From: fournet.arnaud
Message: 56293
Date: 2008-03-30
----- Original Message -----
From: Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
>
>==========
>If we start with
>PIE stage 1
>*a *i *o *u plus stress
As I said, I don't have **o at that stage.
Miguel
=========
Sorry,
I mis-understood.
My point of view is you lack *o.
and hence *o: as well.
I'm trying to figure out
how your system interconnects with mine.
Arnaud
===========
>Rule 1 : stressed becomes long
>PIE stage 2
>*a *a: *u *o *o: *i *i: *u *u:
>stress irrelevant because
>length and stress are the same
No. It's lexical. Some roots have long vowels, some short.
All(?) root nouns have long vowels, so there may have been
something like monosyllabic lengthening going on at an
earlier stage.
============
ok
this is your interpretation,
I consider that long vowels were necessarily stressed
at an earlier stage.
And that short ones were not.
Arnaud
===
>Relevant examples :
>a: podos ~ pedis
>u: nuktos~ noctis
>i: ke:rd ~ sir
Something like that, except that the alternations are
basically:
ó ~ é < **á: ~ **a: '
=======
I understand
stressed *o: ~ unstressed e
Arnaud
========
ó ~ o < **ú: ~ **u: '
========
I disagree :
stressed *o: ~ unstressed u
stressed *o: ~ unstressed o (lacking)
Arnaud
=========
é: ~ o < **í: ~ **i: '
=========
I disagree
stressed *e: ~ unstressed i
Arnaud
=========
>What is the example for o ~ o: ?
None.
=========
I understand
this is a major problem
we'll have to discuss that "hole".
Arnaud
===========
Except there is no short *o. That explains the asymmetry *o:
> *o but not *e: > *e.
=========
This is where I disagree with your approach.
Short *o is unstressed and disappears > zéro.
Hence a hole in the system.
Long o: became short o in many languages.
(except in Tokharian which kept long o:)
Arnaud
========
*i and *u have a stronger tendency to get reduced. This
happened in Slavic (*i, *u > I, U > 0). Cf. also the merger
of /i/ and /u/ in non-initial syllables in Uralic, etc.
Miguel
=======
This is irrelevant for PIE.
Slavic is exceeding late after PIE
I think *i never falls.
Cf. *bhi "in"
Only short *o and short *u fall > zero.
Arnaud
=========