Re: Celtic and Germanic Poland before the Slavs

From: george knysh
Message: 56163
Date: 2008-03-29

--- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

> --- In, george knysh
> <gknysh@...> wrote:
> >
> > Some interesting archaeological data (esp. for
> Torsten
> > as he gathers material for the "origin of
> Germanic"
> > question. Some of this he will like a lot ,some
> less.)
> >
> >
> I must like some of it, since I referred to it
> before in
> I have a couple questions_
> 1) With all the detail in corroborating the identity
> of Wielbark
> relative to other Polish-land cultures, there is not
> a word of
> discussion of similarity or not of Wielbark to their
> 'Scandinavian
> protoplasts', as the Slavic mother tongue (note the
> weird adjectival
> constructions) writer quaintly puts it (apparently I
> live in a Black
> Lagoon).

****GK: Are you a (Swedish)Gaut/Goth or Gotlander,
Torsten? (:=))) The language does stumble here and
there, but what the hell... I feel certain that the
specifics you are interested in are discussed in the
books the article constantly refers to, with
appropriate further citations. Perhaps they are
available in your librarie(s). Many Polish editions
have German and English summaries.****
> 2) It is tempting to equate non-IE(?) Chatti with
> the Cotini/PĂșchov
> mixed culture. Are there reasons one shouldn't?

****GK: Well, two off the top: different arch.
cultures, different peoples acc. to Tacitus.****
> 3) It's further tempting to connect
> Vandili/Vendsyssel/Veneti in Gaul:
> the Limfjord south of Vendsyssel was the preferred
> sailing route to
> the Baltic, not until Hansa Ummelandsfarer with
> large cogs did
> shipping take the dangerous route north of Skagen.

****GK: Resist the temptation.****
> 4) 'The evolution of the power structure within the
> Germanic societies
> in Poland and elsewhere can be traced to some degree
> by examining the
> "princely" graves - burials of chiefs, and even
> hereditary princes, as
> the consolidation of power progressed. Those appear
> from the beginning
> of the Common Era and are located away from ordinary
> cemeteries,
> singly or in small groups. The bodies were inhumed
> in wooden coffins
> and covered with kurgans, or interred in wooden or
> stone chambers.
> Luxurious Roman-made gifts and fancy barbarian
> emulations ... , but
> not weapons, were placed in the graves. 1st and 2nd
> century burials of
> this type, occurring all the way from Jutland to
> Lesser Poland, are
> referred to as princely graves Lubieszewo type,
> after Lubieszewo,
> Gryfice County in western Pomerania, where six such
> burials were found.'
> Here's the question that *you* don't like: where
> does this sudden
> homogeneous upper class come from? Why does it use
> inhumation, not
> cremation, as was the custom before? Is it similar
> to any other
> culture in the neighborhood?

****GK: It would be helpful to relate these graves to
specific Germanic populations. Presumably more
information would be available in the books mentioned.
All I get from the article is that these W. Pomeranian
graves are associated with a group which arrived ca.
30 CE from from Ru/"/gen to replace the local Oksywie
culture which had earlier replaced the Jastorf
culture, and that it was itself replaced by another
group in the 3rd.c.****
> 5) 'Related to the Przeworsk culture was the
> Wietrzno-Solina type, a
> cultural unit with Celtic and then Dacian elements,
> situated within
> the more eastern part of the Beskids range (San
> River basin) during
> the 100-250 CE period[24][25].'
> Saxo's Ruthenians?

****GK: Who knows? In any case some of Ptolemy's
tribal names might be consulted***
> 6) 'The pottery as well as iron mining and
> processing industries kept
> developing in Poland throughout the Roman periods,
> until terminated in
> 5th century or so by the Great Migration. Clay pots
> were still often
> formed manually and these were more crude, while the
> better ones were
> made with the potter's wheel. Some have inscriptions
> engraved, but
> their meaning (if any) is not known.'
> Comment?

****GK: It's unclear if these were symbolic(akin to
tamgas) or literal****
> Torsten

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