Re: Kossack's Conclusions

From: george knysh
Message: 55590
Date: 2008-03-21

--- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

> --- In, george knysh
> <gknysh@...> wrote:
> > This could refer to the arrival of ALL the
> > Hermunduri(from??further north?) into Thuringia
> (ca. 1
> > CE),not just a part.

****GK: Correction: ca.1 BCE, since in 1 CE Gaius
Caesar commanded the legions of the Danube.
Ahenobarbus had been there "somewhat earlier" and now
(1 CE) was having problems on the Rhine (his new
command) with the Cherusci. [account in same context
of Cassius Dio]****
> I don't think so. L. Domitius Ahenobarbus had a
> command on the Ister,
> ie. the Danube, presumably the upper Danube.

****GK: He governed "districts" there, presumably that
of the newly conquered Vindelici and Norici. He had
nothing to do with the Wetterau, which pertained to
the Rhine command.****

For him
> to react and
> leave his station, the Hermunduri must have strayed
> by right under his
> nose, so to speak. The Wetterau is in a valley
> (actually this is where
> the main Autobahn from Northern Germany to Frankfurt
> am Main runs,
> after the engine-busting hills at Kassel), and
> people who come down a
> valley would not be described as "wandering about",
> they are going
> somewhere.

****GK: Hence, the Hermunduri were not wandering
around there, but somewhere closer to the Danube.****

Therefore I think he met them on the Main
> plain; after
> settling the little business of telling them that
> this land was Roman
> property and assigning a place to them to the east
> on someone else's
> abandoned land where they wouldn't be in the way he
> decided to go up
> the way the Hermunduri had come, namely down the
> road the Romans had
> already built there
> to fix the problem at the root; when he got to the
> home of the
> Hermunduri in Thuringia, he met the rest of them who
> had stayed and
> got friendly with them.

****GK: Having settled the Hermunduri in Thuringia, he
"crossed the Albis" and made friends with "Barbarians
on the further side", most likely with the
> So I think the Hermunduri are part of the Przeworsk
> invasion, but of
> the one in Thuringia, around 50 BCE.

****GK: I think they only arrive on the scene at the
very end of the 1rst c.BCE.****
> > They would have the Chatti as
> > their western neighbours, and extend from the
> Werra
> > (?) to the Elbe. Across the Elbe from them
> (between it
> > and the Oder) would be the Semnones. Hence
> Tiberius
> > would have sailed "between them" in 5 CE (Velleius
> > Paterculus). Referring to your conclusion: if the
> > Marcomanni were Przeworsk in the last half of the
> 1rst
> > c. BCE, this would mean that they were both in the
> > Wetterau and in Thuringia, abandoning the former
> > sooner and the latter later, when they centered in
> > Bohemia under Marbod.
> How about: Marcomanni in Wetterau and the Main
> plain, Hermunduri in
> Thuringia, both Przeworsk, the former went to
> Bohemia in the Hercynian
> Forest
> when Marbod told them to, the latter stayed and
> later turned into
> Thuringians

****GK: This 19th c. idea, frequently criticized, has
been thoroughly refuted once again in a 2006
conference at Iena. Cf.
esp."Die Frage nach den Anfängen der Thüringer und
ihrer ethnischen Herkunft ist eine der großen
Unbekannten der Thüringerforschung. Lange Zeit
verbreitet war die Annahme, die Thüringer seien aus
den im 1./2. Jahrhundert bezeugten elbgermanischen
Hermunduren hervorgegangen. Die von Kaspar Zeuß 1837
erstmals formulierte, von Eduard Schröder, Walter
Schlesinger und anderen mehrfach kritisierte These
wurde von MATTHIAS SPRINGER (Magdeburg) noch einmal
einer kritischen Prüfung unterzogen und als unhaltbar
zurückgewiesen. "
(will save the rest for later)

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