Torsten's theory reviewed (Was:Re: Post-Postscript on Przeworsk)

From: tgpedersen
Message: 55061
Date: 2008-03-12

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
>
> OK. Let's do this step by step.
>
> --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > First there was the abortive Ariovist/Tungri
> > incursion,
>
> ****GK: Let's put this aside for the moment. I'm not
> at all sure one can identify "Tungri" and
> "Thuringii/Toringi". It's of no real consequence for
> your overall theory.

Would be nice, though, since it's connected to my idea of Iranian
*armin-tur "Thor people" becoming Germanic (or some other, -ing- is
not necessarily IE) Tur-ing-. But let's leave that aside.

> As is the fact that there were
> "Germanic" pushes across the Rhine prior to the
> arrival of Ariovistus in 72 BCE.****

>
> the real one
> > followed just after, within decades. I don't know
> > whether it would be
> > possible to separate them archaeologically in the
> > individual sites.
>
> ****GK: I would tend to agree with this.

Don't agree with me so suddenly. I fell off the chair.

> Ariovistus
> arrived in 72 BCE. By the time of Caesar's 58 BCE
> campaign vast population movements were under way
> ("one hundred cantons of Suebi pressing on the
> Rhine"). The defeat and withdrawal of Ariovistus did
> not stop this.

The same thing occurred to me. He must also have had an organization
or truce to back up his plans/threats to colonize Gaul. They must
have been on the way when A. was defeated, with no way home (which was
taken over by the Wielbarkers, I read in another mail).


> I would think that archaeologically
> this movement and the resettlements associated with it
> would be "visible" as a continuum datable to the
> second half of the 1rst c. BCE. Whatever is noted in
> your series of references to previous cybalist
> messages to that effect is acceptable:
> >
....

> >
> > Rolf Hachmann
> > Germanen und Kelten am Rhein in der Zeit um Christi
> > Geburt, p. 36
> > in
> > Rolf Hachmann, Georg Kossack, Hans Kuhn
> > Völker zwischen Germanen und Kelten
> > Schriftquellen, Bodenfunde und Namengut zur
> > Geschichte des nördlichen Westdeutschlands um Christi Geburt
> > /cut for economy/
> > Erst wesentlich weiter im Osten, jenseits
> > der Oder und Neiße in Schlesien, Posen und Südpolen,
> > begegnet eine Kulturgruppe, die den Fremderscheinungen in der
> > Wetterau in allen wesentlichen Merkmalen gleicht (Taf. 8, 15-24).
> > Es ist die Oder-Warthe-Gruppe oder Przeworsker Kultur, wie sie
> > im polnischen Schrifttum genannt wird65. Die Spuren dieser Kultur
> > verschwinden in der Wetterau bereits wieder vor dem Ende des
> > letzten vorchristlichen Jahrhunderts.
> > "
> >
> > Notice the Wetterau traces. They are connected with Ariovist's
> > incursion. Traces of that disappear within the 1st cent. BCE. So
> > there must have been two incursions or invasions of
> > Germania.
>
> ****GK: Perhaps even more. But we already know this
> from Caesar (1. pre-Ariovistus incursions of the
> "Cisrhenani", incl. Eburones et sim. 2. Ariovistus'
> Suebi. in 72 BCE 3. "The one hundred cantons" of Suebi
> by 58 BCE.)****

The Ariovist/Wetterau invasion took place down the river Main valley.
The other similar 'foreign phenomena' invasion is mentioned in the
part of the quote you left out, which is the drive towards old Jastorf
land. The two drives might have been simultaneous. Or the drive down
the Elbe part of a salvage/emergency operation taking the many now
homeless to an area they would expect to be at least partially
friendly, since they were relatives.


>
> ****GK: Where are we now? According to your
> authorities (Hachmann, Peschel), the Suebian invasions
> westward (the spread of the Przeworsk culture) is
> basically verifiable in the archaeology of the period
> ca.50/40 to ca.O.

The drive northwest down the Elbe I think should be equated with the
Suebian invasions.

> Jastorf disappears in the process,
> but so does Przeworsk. By the beginning of the CE the
> mingling has produced a new culture. Next question:
> what is the name of this new culture,

I think archaeologically it's called the Elbe-Germanic culture
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbgermanen
linguistically I'd call it Proto-NWGermanic

> and what are its dimensions (as to area)?

You'll have to take into account Augustus' subjugation of Germania 12
BCE - 9 CE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germania
It provides a motive for the Elbe Germani to go north.

> Hachmann states (message
> 20831) that it exists from SW Slovakia to Jutland, and
> from the Saale-Elbe to the Vistula. I'm a bit unclear
> as to the Vistula aspect: Przeworsk continues to exist
> there.

Well, that makes sense if the mother of it all is Przeworsk.


> But let's focus on the northern aspect.****

I hadn't expected you to cave in so soon ;-) so I haven't prepared a
lot of evidence on that part of the trip. Off the top of my head I can
offer this:

1.
The Charudes, who were among those Ariovist planned to resettle in
Gaul, end up in Jutland:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/9777
('Hardersyssel' is wrong, it's 'Hardsyssel'; and I now believe the
time sequence was first, Ariovist tries to settle Harudes in Gaul,
then, they are settled in Western Jutland; this because there is no
archaeological evidence of a massive emigration from Jutland to the south)

2.
The -leben/-lev names:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/50960
A collection of -leben/-lev names given at the same time must mean
property changed hands at that time. Again, since there is no evidence
of immigration from Denmark to Thuringia, apart from some earthenware
that connects Thuringia and the Limfjord area (Cimbri/Himmerland,
Teutones/Thy, Vandals, Vendsyssel), the influence must have been from
south to north.

3.
A new culture appears in Scandinavia
Cf.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Roman_Iron_Age
with
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Iron_Age
They can be reinterpreted to accommodate an invasion, although
Scandinavian archaeologists are loath to admit invasions and prefer
interpretations in which every culture change is peaceful and induced
from within. Note the passage from exclusive cremation burials to part
inhumation, part cremation, which we discussed before.

I'll come up with some more.


Torsten