Re: Grimm shift as starting point of "Germanic"

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "fournet.arnaud" <fournet.arnaud@...>
wrote:

>
>
> From: tgpedersen
>
> There has been some disputes over the relative dating of Grimm and
> Verner, some have even argued for splitting Grimm in two with Verner
> in the middle. Kuhn argues also Verner took place during the
> expansion into NWBlock (see my prev. reference).
> Torsten
> ===========
> Last Summer,
> you pointed at the Dutch word <pier> "worm"
> which you consider NBW
> and I see no reason why it can't be pseudo-Celtic *kwer.

Me and Occam can't see any reason why one would introduce yet another
language beside NWBlock in that area.

> Then If the connection with *kwer "worm" is right,
> Grimm L.verSch.

Lautverschiebung?

> was finished when this word was borrowed.
> A.

No, it was happening then. As you saw on some of the examples, there
are doublets among the place names, halen-/kalen- etc. It was active
when the Germani arrived in present Belgium, since we Tournai/Doornik etc.

> Unfortunately, since we don't know the donor language(s), we can't
> tell in general whether a word from a substrate was borrowed before
> or after Grimm. Only when they have been borrowed into neighboring
> language groups can we do so. Look at the data for a gloss from
> Schrijver's 'language of geminates':
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/46175
> see also Arnaud's objections
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/51045
> and
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/51046
> T.
> ============
> I maintain my previous objection.
> handi is from Uralic *kom-t.
> This early loan has undergone Grimm L.vS.
> And the form *kom-t must have been borrowed
> early enough to keep the original PU full form.
>
> Now
> we can also see that Roman loanwords :
> Käse, Kettle etc have no Grimm L.vS.
> And Celtic loanwords haven't :
> Ri:k > Germanic *ri:k-
>
> So it's quite obvious Grimm must be really early,
> it happened before any contact with
> NBW, Celtic and Latin.

No. Those loans are migration time loans. It is well known
linguistically that Germanic constacts with Celtic are late.

> And another point is about Gothic
> which has :
> Grimm
> Verner
> Consonantic leveling of Grimm
>
> I can't see how so many changes
> can happen in four centuries.

It can happen in a few decades, given the right circumstances.

>
> One more thing though: Verner and Grimm must have taken place before
> Germanic adopted first-syllable stress. There is a large almost
> contiguous area in Europe that has or had that type of stress:
> Celtic, Germanic, Italic, Hungarian, Czech, Old Polish, Latvian,
> Fennic. One might speculate that Germanic passed into that
> geographic area when it made that stress-change.
> Torsten
>
> ========
> I don't think it's a strong argument.
> When you 're at a loss with stress
> You stress either first or last syllabe.
> Proto-Germanic speakers can invent that alone.
> They chose first syllable stress.

But why would they be at a loss? Because they were new speakers. With
the speech habits of that area.


Torsten

> ========
>